Two Plus Two Older Archives - *Official* Boat or Better Thread

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- - *Official* Boat or Better Thread (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=389268)

J. Stew

12-02-2005 07:16 PM

Re: 66 in BB

Gettin' dirty at a tight-arse table . . .

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (11.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

mmmmmmmmmm . . .

12-03-2005 01:43 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

Paradise Poker $2/$4

Hero is in SB with T6o.
Action is folded to Hero. Hero completes. Villian checks.

Flop
T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villian checks

Turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villian checks

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villian checks

Final Pot: 1 BB.
Results:
Hero has full house, Sixes over tens
Villian has [83o] (a pair of sixes)
(I) Villian say: "nh"
He answers: "yeah, super"
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Eeegah

12-03-2005 02:05 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I'd snicker at you if it weren't for the fact that you won the maximum from that guy anyway.

SoftcoreRevolt

12-03-2005 02:06 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
I'd snicker at you if it weren't for the fact that you won the maximum from that guy anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet you 2-1 he'd have called on the flop.

Eeegah

12-03-2005 02:12 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
Bet you 2-1 he'd have called on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're on, sucka.

12-03-2005 02:16 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I doubt I would have, but I wasn't put to that test.

MrWookie47

12-03-2005 03:16 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

So, I got a PM this evening constructively criticizing this thread. The guy said that because of how difficult it is to maintain a coherent strategy discussion of a particular hand when new hands are coming in all the time, the thread is a failure. I'm not sure either way. One thing I do think is that this thread is attracting posts from boat+ hands that may not have been posted in the first place, rather than acting strictly as a depository for boat+ hands that someone wanted to post, but then decided to put in here.

What do you guys think? To the people who've posted hands, do you think you've received adaquate commentary? To the rest, do you think there's good discussion here? Is this more effective than the alternative of having the occasional "Watch me check my quads to the river" thread? Pipe up. *ominous music* The fate of the thread hangs in the balance!

Also, by questioning this thread, I mean no disrespect to Jax. He went out on a limb to try an experiment. Some experiments work. Some fail. Either way, we learn something. Win, lose, or draw, I think there's been plenty gain to the forum from this.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:32 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I think the signal:noise ration in the forum is getting way too high. Part of this has to do with the 3 or 4 KOTKP3 that got started, most of which were good and justified.
The other things that had been cluttering it up were hands with one street that may have been slightly messed up because of reads. Most of these tend to be slowplaying/high hand type posts. Also, there were a few stats posts, but lately they've retreated to Greg's stats thread.
I think the lack of a NC thread is decreasing the quality of some of the others.

benkath1

12-03-2005 03:36 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I am very pleased with the replies to my hand. When tilt said he would have check raised the turn instead, it made me think. And Tubasteve did some great math(which I am incapable of). I think this thread is a good idea. I would not have posted that hand otherwise. Afterall, who wants to see another boat take down a monster pot? You will get a lot of brag hands, but most boat or better hands are just beating up on fish anyway.

I think big hands are something that deserves discussion from time to time. Yeah, they're easy to win with, but when it somes to the bottom line, you want to win as much as possible to boost that winrate. I don't even read the "Did I play these Aces correctly?" posts any more.

If people will describe the hand in the subject line, it might be easier to navigate the thread. And reads are a must. If you don't have them, you don't have them, but it would help in the strategy of the hand.

my .02

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:41 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
If people will describe the hand in the subject line

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good idea.

12-03-2005 04:17 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

benihana,

Thank you for the compliment, that was my first time attempting such a "complex" mathematical analysis on the forums, glad to see it benefited someone! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ironically, I was the PMer that Wookie is referring to ,[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] and I feel that there are a lot of hands being posted and not much being said to any one of them in particular; I also agree with Wookie that some of these hands are probably only being posted because this thread is dedicated to them, and that normally people would not regard them as being "2+2-worthy".

What does everyone else think? Again I also mean no disrespect to jaxup (i hope thats the correct OP LOL) but I think this thread should be locked and that boats+++ (that are worthy of discussion) should be posted in their own threads to get the attention they deserve.

Best wishes,
Steve

p.s. I'm a little drunk, hope that was coherent. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

jaxUp

12-03-2005 04:25 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
benihana,

Thank you for the compliment, that was my first time attempting such a "complex" mathematical analysis on the forums, glad to see it benefited someone! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ironically, I was the PMer that Wookie is referring to ,[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] and I feel that there are a lot of hands being posted and not much being said to any one of them in particular; I also agree with Wookie that some of these hands are probably only being posted because this thread is dedicated to them, and that normally people would not regard them as being "2+2-worthy".

What does everyone else think? Again I also mean no disrespect to jaxup (i hope thats the correct OP LOL) but I think this thread should be locked and that boats+++ (that are worthy of discussion) should be posted in their own threads to get the attention they deserve.

Best wishes,
Steve

p.s. I'm a little drunk, hope that was coherent. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

For a drnk post, that was pretty good. See shadow's post in the 2+2 table thread for a comparison.

I agree that some of these hands would not normally be posted. I also think that some of them are not getting the attention they deserve. I do think that the forum has been a bit worse since the split however. This is probably because of a lack of veterans who have moved to SSSH full time (or almost full time). Has anybody else thought this? If so, what can we do about it?

12-03-2005 04:37 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I play exclusively 6-max, and I would rather stay here than change forums. I think there is a lot of great discussion that is fueled by our passion for the game rather than the stakes we play at; it seems similar to college vs. NFL football, if that makes sense. Most of us are 0.50/1.00 players and are trying to learn the game without losing our shirts, which I think motivates us to make the right call since every ounce of EV helps make us the money we need to make playing these low limits worth our time. I personally don't want some 5/10 player commenting on my 0.50/1.00 6 max hands; its a completely different game.

Is there any way we can rename this forum so Micro SH players keep posting here instead of moving to SSSH??? Thats the only thought that really comes to mind to keep our old posters here. Maybe calling it "Micro-Limit Full and Shorthanded"???

Steve

jaxUp

12-03-2005 04:46 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any way we can rename this forum so Micro SH players keep posting here instead of moving to SSSH??? Thats the only thought that really comes to mind to keep our old posters here. Maybe calling it "Micro-Limit Full and Shorthanded"???

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this out of the question. New posters will soon become old posters, and everybody is free to post where they want. I thinkwe should just make an extra effort to leave the NC bs out of here and add some quality posts.

MrWookie47

12-03-2005 04:46 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

Like I said in an earlier thread, I have no intention of blocking out 6 max posts here. Or 2/4 posts. Or 30/60 posts. I'll move NL and stud posts, though. OTOH, I think SSSH is a real boon. It gives a good home for 2/4 and 3/6 6 max players, and it helps the 5/10 players who had their stuff overwhelmed in the original HUSH. I also know of more than one micro poster who were tired of all the 6 max stuff, as they were full ring players. As far as I'm concerned, 0.50/1 6 max posts, while I might encourage them to go in SSSH, they're welcome in both forums. There's no sense in alienating people who post good strategy.

As far as this thread, it looks like it stays around. Maybe I'll check back in later after a bit longer to see what people think then, but I'm glad to see that so far people like it.

As for the signal to noise ratio, I did notice an influx of low (but not zero) content big hands, but I hadn't noticed a whole lot of other noise. OTOH, Racious has already locked more threads this week than I have, so maybe I'm just not seeing all of them.

12-03-2005 04:51 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

Either way I'm here to stay [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Now I just need to start playing/posting some hands instead of just replying to them. And I should probably stop taking stupid shots at 1/2 where I invariably run worse than I do at .50/1.00.

KeysrSoze

12-03-2005 06:39 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

Edit.... nevermind this, see below...

KeysrSoze

12-03-2005 06:41 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

Hmm, I think I extracted the most out of my quads here. Too bad I LOST though [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+2 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (23 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 35 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3c 3s (four of a kind, threes).
UTG+2 has 9d 8d (flush, nine high).
MP3 has 4d Ad (straight flush, five high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 35 BB.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:06 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
I can't find the hand, but at Full Tilt 1/2, I limped on the button with 33 after 2 EP limpers. The BB raised, and all 3 called. My 100+ hand read was that I had 3 LAGs who would play any 2 suited or better.

Flop came A 3 3. BB bet, EP1 called, EP2 raised . . .

I thought for almost the max time trying to decide if I should raise or donk cold call 2. The reasoning that won out was to cc and pray for the BB to re-raise. He had demonstrated a tendency to stay in the lead if he liked his hand, regardless of position. He did, and got 3 more calls.

Turn was Ks, putting 4 to the flush on the board. Same exact betting - I cold called 2 and was rewarded with a BB re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should have put a cap in right here. You are for sure getting 3 more BB + probably more on the next street.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:08 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 4 folds.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Right here I think I may have got three more bets out of him, but i figured a weak ace since he didnt raise preflop so i didnt know if i should c/r this flop or not...

Turn: (2.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, Hero caps, MP3 calls.

here comes the money...

River: (10.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls.

Mainly wondering about my flop play...

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 5h 5s (four of a kind, fives).
MP3 has 4h As (full house, aces full of fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.75 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop play here is fine because:

-The pot is small
-By slowplaying you allow somebody to make a secondbest hand, but it is very unlikely that it will improve to better than yours
-it is HU

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:12 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
And one more...

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG (poster) checks, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, UTG calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls $0.50 (All-In), UTG calls.

I cap this preflop figuring he had KK or AA just because I can get him out of the way since he will be all in... Was that a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop cap is standard

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (14 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Probably should have went for the c/r??? Or was this leading out ok since i did cap preflop i figured it would get checked...

[/ QUOTE ]

You could not c/r here because you were in position. When checked to you a bet is fine. I may have tried a slowplay here, hoping to get a BB out of him witha single heart or something, but a bet is fine.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qs Qc (four of a kind, queens).
MP2 has Ah Ac (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

turn and river are good.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:16 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]

If you're wondering what that hand looks like from the villian's point of view, here you go -

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Qd Qc (straight flush, queen high).
SB has 7c 5c (straight flush, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.

SB was most unhappy after that hand. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be raising this flop. If not ahead you have 4 outs to what will probably be the best hand, + 8 more flush outs which will give you the best hand nearly half the time. If he 3-bets, I call down UI, and probably just call down if a flush card comes.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:24 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
In situations where you flop a big hand (ie boat/flush/straight) How should it be played, generally I will slowplay against few opponents, in this situation I hit a big hand but I didn't want to scare anyone away how did I play it?

no reads

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

I din't bet or c/r here as I thought I would scare everyone away, also I wanted to c/r the turn (I would of bet/c-r if there were more opponents)

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero ?

I'm worried I've been slowplayed by a flush, do I call or raise? (then again wouldn't someone with a flush re-raise the turn?)

[/ QUOTE ]

You should come out betting on this flop. As the PFR, people are assuming that you have strength. As a result, they will usually check this through. However, most players with a Q or diamond will call here.The problem with going for a turn c/r is that often he will check with a drawing hand. I think I would have c/r'ed the flop and led the turn. I just call this river raise.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:26 PM

Re: 66 in BB

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's one. I'm playing at Stars and the tables are loosey goosey, as you'll soon see.

I'm in BB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

1 limp, 2 limp, 3 limp raise , 3 bet from hijack , folded to me.

Now the way utg and utg+1 and utg+2 have been playing, I was about 95% sure, if I called, they were calling. I was just as certain that if the action was capped, they were coming along too.

So I called the 2 sb and lo and behold, so did the limpers. MP2 (original raiser) caps, and hijack calls with the rest of us.

All 6 of us see a flop with 24.5 sb in it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Yummy!! But this is where I'm a little lost.

So being oop holding a monster, I check, intending to CR if it's heads up.

4 checks to the original raiser and he bets, hijack raises so I smooth call the 2 bets, hoping for some overcalls and possibly a 3 bet from MP2. I get one overcall, and MP2 makes it 3 , hijack calls, and I go ahead and cap it , all 3 of them call. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Turn anyone? How about a brick for 20.25 BB?

4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to make it:
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, UTG+1 calls all in, MP2 calls,

river is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, MP2 calls and hates me.

I win 24bb pot with boat,
utg+1 has 77 for 2 pair,
and MP2 has AA, another 2 pair

Was my preflop call correct, knowing that this could be a huge multiway pot? I will know on the flop if I'm gonna continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

tubasteve's analysis above was very good.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:27 PM

Re: 66 in BB

[ QUOTE ]
I love you, passive players.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Ah 7h (flush, ace high).
Hero has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 13 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold pf. postflop was standard.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:29 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
I think I played this quads hand pretty good. Villain was a TAG.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.

River: (10.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 14.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your read, I like this play. I might just bet the river, expecting him to be scared and check it through.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:34 PM

Re: Why you don\'t need to slowplay quads at 1/2

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, CO calls, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

CO:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a flush.
BB:A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for 2 pair, Aces and Queens.
Hero: Flopped da nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

calling the flop 3-bet is better i think so you can raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think so. We hit such a big piece of the board. Just pop it like its hot and hope someone else hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB obviously hit and will almost definitely bet the turn if we call, but will likely check if we cap. CO seems to have no p roblem calling anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think its rare to find a guy who will call two big bets on the turn without a better hand than A9o. I think its better to collect on the flop when we are sure that the bets go in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think the EV is close on this one. Here we get an extra BB on the flop + likely 1.5 on the turn if we cap. If we call and raise the turn we will get like 2.5BB on the turn (that means CO calls 1/8 of the time) and 0 extra BB on the flop. so I think it's really close.

SCfuji

12-03-2005 03:38 PM

Re: Why you don\'t need to slowplay quads at 1/2

didnt you lose an avatar bet or something? why are you still normal looking. i want to see blood damn it.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:38 PM

Re: 66 in BB

[ QUOTE ]
Gettin' dirty at a tight-arse table . . .

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (11.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

mmmmmmmmmm . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you check your table reads. You got a limper and 2 coldcallers. I can't bring myself to raise this after a limper, unless I have a specific read that I will fold everybody else, and that the rest of the table is exceptionally tight. Checking the flop is ok, but I think I would bet it. Most players are peeling with OCs on this flop, but will not call a turn bet. I think it's reasonable to expect CO to bet this turn again. That card was no reason to be worried. river is good.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:41 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise Poker $2/$4

Hero is in SB with T6o.
Action is folded to Hero. Hero completes. Villian checks.

Flop
T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villian checks

Turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villian checks

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villian checks

Final Pot: 1 BB.
Results:
Hero has full house, Sixes over tens
Villian has [83o] (a pair of sixes)
(I) Villian say: "nh"
He answers: "yeah, super"
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

this pf completion is gross. raise or fold. I probably bet the river after the first 2 check-throughs. This slowplay is ok because of small pot + HU.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:42 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, I think I extracted the most out of my quads here. Too bad I LOST though [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+2 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (23 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 35 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3c 3s (four of a kind, threes).
UTG+2 has 9d 8d (flush, nine high).
MP3 has 4d Ad (straight flush, five high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 35 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

very well-played. However, this is more of a bad beat post. Please keep this thread to content only.

jaxUp

12-03-2005 03:43 PM

Re: Why you don\'t need to slowplay quads at 1/2

[ QUOTE ]
didnt you lose an avatar bet or something? why are you still normal looking. i want to see blood damn it.

[/ QUOTE ]

b-set is slow getting ideas.

MrWookie47

12-03-2005 04:03 PM

Re: Why you don\'t need to slowplay quads at 1/2

Now that this forum contains both bottomset and beset, we may have to be more careful w/ our nick names [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

KeysrSoze

12-03-2005 06:11 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

OK no bad beat post this time (you're right)

This flop situation is a real dilema for me, I want a big multiway pot with all the second-best hands possible and dont wan't to knock people out on this flop, then I reflect after the fact; these guys are just as likely to call 2 bets with their inside straight draw or jack/weak kicker (not to mention the case 9) as they are one bet, and I miss alot of these raises.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds.

River: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

jaxUp

12-03-2005 07:41 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

[ QUOTE ]
OK no bad beat post this time (you're right)

This flop situation is a real dilema for me, I want a big multiway pot with all the second-best hands possible and dont wan't to knock people out on this flop, then I reflect after the fact; these guys are just as likely to call 2 bets with their inside straight draw or jack/weak kicker (not to mention the case 9) as they are one bet, and I miss alot of these raises.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds.

River: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the problem with these situations is that you want it to be multiway, but you want to let people go to war. I think that I would prefer raising this flop. The reason for this is that we can assume SB will bet the turn again, at which point we would like to raise. However, raising here is even more likely to fold out a J or gutshot and reeks of a slowplay. I play this one straightforward because people are more likely to call 2 SB than 2BB.

WalkAmongUs

12-07-2005 08:36 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I think this is how you're supposed to dig yourself out of a hole...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 (poster) 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero caps, MP3 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero caps, MP3 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (22.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 34.25 BB
Main Pot: 34.25 BB, between UTG+2, MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (34.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
UTG+2 has 9d 8s (three of a kind, eights).
MP1 has 9c Tc (flush, queen high).
Hero has Qs Qh (full house, queens full of eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 34.25 BB.

benkath1

12-07-2005 10:50 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

Did you think you were ahead on the flop? I probably would have just called the 3 bet with my 2 outer.

benkath1

12-08-2005 02:24 AM

Another CardPlayer Article

I think this is a good thread for this article. I think it is an interesting 'inside' look at playing a monster hand.

flopping quads

Eeegah

12-30-2005 08:49 PM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

WISE FWOM YOUR GWAVE

Anyone playing this differently against an unknown poster?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
5 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Geng	12-31-2005 01:21 AM

Re: *Official* Boat or Better Thread

I had one similar the other day with QQ against 3 fish. Ended up netting 36BB by the time it was over.

Board ended up: 5d, Ts, 5s, Qd, 6h

I agree with the article, especially at low limits you want to keep the fish in as long as possible when you've got the nuts but you definitely need to bet. A check on the flop and lead out bet on the turn tends to slow things down way too much. Unless an Ace is on the board people don't seem to give credit for boats and will keep on in a hand past the point of pain.

Fish one had 6s, 6d
Hero won with Qh, Qs
Fish two had Jh, Jd
The 4th person dropped out in all the action on the turn. Knowing his play it looked like he was on a flush draw. Helped make up for a lousy day.

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