Re: spitting midhigh
 

based on what has been discussed so far, my vote (and it is only just a vote) is leaning toward making mid stakes something like 8/16 up to 15/30 and high stakes 20/40+. 30/60+ seems a bit too aggressive even if 15/30 and 20/40 are close. i think it's easier to tune things upward (going from 20/40+ to 30/60+) than it is to back them off, so i would err on the side of conservatism when it comes to modifying limit requirements. it doesn't sound right calling 20/40 or even 30/60 'high stakes', though. 'higher stakes'?

i am beginning to see how a lot of people could feel stranded with 15/30 hands, wanting 'higher level' responses than those offered in the small stakes forum yet not feeling right about posting them in midhigh due to hostile/non-existent responses over simplicity. if it's changed and somebody felt they had a more basic question playing 20/40 or 30/60, they could still post it in the mid forum (which would hopefully be populated with more of the people they want answering their questions).

Re: spitting midhigh
 

no need for a split...
basically, 15/30 and 20/40 belong in SS.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I guess I'd really like to see a split. I much prefer reading 15/30 and 20/40 hands, and I know I am not alone int tiring of hearing "good" posters complain that a question or a hand is too simple and belings in SS. Well, SS players don't deal with blind steals, SS players don't have to think about whether or not they can call with their limping hand after a raise and two calls, SS players.... etc etc. There are many such issues that are new and unique in mid stakes that players like me want to talk about. MH posters often take the stance "well you should know that." As a mid stakes player, I would like us to have our own forum.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
no need for a split...
basically, 15/30 and 20/40 belong in SS.

[/ QUOTE ]
I absolutely disagree given the current description of the Small Stakes forum. There's no way 15/30 and 20/40 hands belong in the same forum as people posting about $3/6 online and B&M games.

My personal instincts say Small Stakes should cover up to about $8-16, Mid Stakes (if it exists) $10-20 up to $30-60, and High Stakes $40-80 and up. (EDIT: I could see $30/60 being in High Stakes.)

Before anyone responds, please keep in mind I've preemptively taken my suggestions and shoved them up my ass.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I think it's fine the way it is. Pushing 15/30 down into SS would just further dilute that forum.

If people wanted to be more aggressive about moving crappy threads out of here I think that is fine as long as it doesn't turn into a popularity contest. Sometimes people with low post counts have good things to say too.

The only argument I could see for making a High forum is if it would suddenly encourage the best/legendary posters to become hyperactive if even for a short period of time.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

with high stakes being something like 40/80 and up, you really run a risk of creating ghost towns. bear in mind the plan is already in place to create more tiers for HUSH, including high stakes. say somebody's got a shorthanded 80/160 hand. do they post it in high HUSH, or high limit? if it goes in high HUSH, how many posts will there even be in high limit since everything over 100/200 is shorthanded? if you have no high limit HUSH and high stakes is everything 40/80+, shorthanded or not, you've got the 8/16 people chatting with the 30/60 people and that's not good either. those scenarios look like the real pickle.

to tpir the suggestion is to create a mid forum for 8/16-something, not to push them into small stakes.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think we should have a forum for forum creation discussion

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also already happening no matter what.

<font color="#888888">returns to lurking now... </font>

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before anyone responds, please keep in mind I've preemptively taken my suggestions and shoved them up my ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. Cracked me up.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
there are people playing mid-high yet still making boring, almost beginner-level, posts.

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I agree with this, but from the other side of the coin. As someone just breaking into the mid-limits, I would actually really like a forum to post some pretty boring/standard hands. Most of them concerned with adapting to the vastly increased aggression and generally better standard of play. These posts certainly would not fit in SSH, but I am hesitant to post them here, as I am sure it would bring down the quality of discussion in this forum. As surbullet said "these posts have no home".

There are quite a few of us moving "out of the kiddie pool", and a new forum would help us and also keep the quality of this forum up. I don't think having a low number of posts on each forum is a bad thing at all, either.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
based on what has been discussed so far, my vote (and it is only just a vote) is leaning toward making mid stakes something like 8/16 up to 15/30 and high stakes 20/40+. 30/60+ seems a bit too aggressive even if 15/30 and 20/40 are close. i think it's easier to tune things upward (going from 20/40+ to 30/60+) than it is to back them off, so i would err on the side of conservatism when it comes to modifying limit requirements. it doesn't sound right calling 20/40 or even 30/60 'high stakes', though. 'higher stakes'?

i am beginning to see how a lot of people could feel stranded with 15/30 hands, wanting 'higher level' responses than those offered in the small stakes forum yet not feeling right about posting them in midhigh due to hostile/non-existent responses over simplicity. if it's changed and somebody felt they had a more basic question playing 20/40 or 30/60, they could still post it in the mid forum (which would hopefully be populated with more of the people they want answering their questions).

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds good to me.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

It is clear that the 15/30 and 20/40 players have a problem on this forum.

To suggest that their posts belong alongside 2/4 or 3/6 hands is ludicrous and while I respect the many regular posters on this forum, anyone who suggests that they DO belong there have clearly not played BOTH limits recently. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The 15/30 and 20/40 players are in a transition stage. On Party where most people play, there are very few full tables between 3/6 and 15/30. This means that most players will have played 3/6; moved to short tables at 5/10 and 10/20 to improve their HU and 3-way skills and then moved to 15/30.

It is probably true that many of the very experienced high limit players will view some of the questions as being trivially easy but the 15/30 and 20/40 players do NOT see them as trivial. Some of these very experienced players are kind enough to spend some of their time helping further the education of these "improvers" but there is no reason why they should do so, even though it is greatly appreciated.

If the 15/30 and 20/40 games were split it could be considered an "improvers" forum. It is true that all players at all limits are probably trying to improve but 15/30 and 20/40 players have a new set of challenges.

1) They are dealing with higher (full table) aggression than they are used to.
2) There are a larger number of better players (since a decent living can be made at these stakes)
3) They are now getting used to more HU and 3-way pots that started with players having tighter preflop standards at a full table.
4) There is a smaller pool of players, so maybe for the first time in their playing careers, getting to "know" the opponents becomes really worth the effort. At 3/6, just playing ABC with no reads and no imagination will win a sizeable amount.
5) Because the players are better, some are actually now capable of folding. Bluffing at 3/6 is almost a complete waste of time, yet at 100/200, we lower stakes players look on in disbelief as players "lock horns" and cap the flop and turn with 3rd pair or even air. We have the challenge of understanding when such action is +EV and when it is spewing.
6) They have the mental problem of dealing with significantly increased stakes

Assuming the site is there to offer a service to all players, it seems clear that some means of helping the 15/30, and 20/40 players is required without wasting the time of the more experienced players who do not wish to contribute to the development of the lower limit players.

A forum that was aimed at 15/30 and 20/40 players could be used for us to discuss ideas amongst ourselves to try and get a better understanding of our new playing environment. If any of the more experienced players would be kind enough to contribute that would be wonderful. Sometimes this input could be a detailed analysis; sometimes it could be a thought provoking question in the El Diablo style of forcing us to look at a core issue or sometimes it could be a Clarkmesiter one liner. He said in one of my threads, "You MUST bet this turn", no great analysis there but an absolute requirement by me to try and find out WHY! Several hours later, a quick and dirty spreadsheet let me understand why he was right. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

There is a huge improvement required to go from 3/6 to the real high stakes games. Can this site be of any help in getting us there?

Trevor

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meta-moderation (a la Slashdot) would be great

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I agree wholeheartedly.

First of all, not all games at a given limit play the same. Most people seem to be hung up on where a specific limit belongs. The fact is, each game plays differently. Even at a lowly 30/60 game, the game can vary widely from being a limp-fest to being very tough.

(Secondly, not all posts by a given poster are the same. I have seen historically "good" posters write junk, and unknown posters make very good points.)

I think allowing for a modern moderation system where each post can be rated, filtered, etc. would be very beneficial to these boards.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

Normally only a lurker in this forum, but how about making the split to Mid-High Strategy and Mid-High Gossip

Re: spitting midhigh
 

IMHO, posts on 10/20 - 20/40 do not belong in the same forum as 2/4 (small stakes). I'm for either keeping them here or splitting them off into a mid-level forum. I could see reasons for putting 30/60 into either mid or high.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

As someone pointed out earlier, 30/60 would end up being posted in either mid or high, depending on the context of the question. Generally speaking, idiots like me would put them in mid, thus preserving the elites forum from such terrible garbage.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

The name of the forum is: Mid to High
The highest 3 games at Poker Stars are:
100 / 200 &lt;-- so this must be high
30 / 60 &amp;
15 / 30

Unless you want a different forum for EVERY level I'm not sure how 15 / 30 can not be considered to be Mid stakes.

Perhaps the forum title should be:
Mid high players with a lot of hands played and lots of posts?
It seems to me this is what the elite ultimately want.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

There is just not enough volume on this forum to warrant splitting it up. Can't you guys put up with an occasional 15/30 post from a mediocre player like me who just wants to learn and hopefully one day become as awesome as you poker gods.:p

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. Even if you split up the forum, you will just get the same moronic posts we get now, but they will be on two forums rather than one.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is just not enough volume on this forum to warrant splitting it up. Can't you guys put up with an occasional 15/30 post from a mediocre player like me who just wants to learn and hopefully one day become as awesome as you poker gods.:p

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. Even if you split up the forum, you will just get the same moronic posts we get now, but they will be on two forums rather than one.

[/ QUOTE ]

what he said

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, posts on 10/20 - 20/40 do not belong in the same forum as 2/4 (small stakes). I'm for either keeping them here or splitting them off into a mid-level forum. I could see reasons for putting 30/60 into either mid or high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the heart of the the OP's question. 2/4 online is not much different from 10/20 live.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is just not enough volume on this forum to warrant splitting it up. Can't you guys put up with an occasional 15/30 post from a mediocre player like me who just wants to learn and hopefully one day become as awesome as you poker gods.:p

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. Even if you split up the forum, you will just get the same moronic posts we get now, but they will be on two forums rather than one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: spitting midhigh
 

I play mostly 15/30 and sometimes feel a little bad about posting them in this forum, beside a 100/200 hand.
But, from the hands I posted in the small stakes forum, when I would post a 15/30 hand and get responses from 2/4 players,and just responses that I felt were innacurate, or not helpful.

In the mid-high forum, I probably don't get as many responses as a 50/100 hand, and that's because people who don't wanna waste their time with my petty 15/30 river decision, just don't post on my thread. And that's completely fine, because I do get lots of insightful input from some people, and my play has been improving dramatically, and I attriubute a lot of that to people helping me with hands in this forum.

But my view is probably biased, because, I am one of the few who would be greatly impacted if there were a split. Try asking the 5% of the population that would be left out of a proposed tax cut, if they support it, they would probably say no. I also say no.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

well the good thing that will come out of this thread is that more mid stakes players will post here. We'll get to see more 15-30 hands.

Re: spitting midhigh
 

Is this what's been decided? No split and midlimit posts here?

Re: spitting midhigh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this what's been decided? No split and midlimit posts here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Currently the plan is to create the new midlimit forum.