Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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hi jonny.
playing the party 2k SH games w/ a 40k roll is laughable.
you need way more...

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Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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8k is plenty and the few hands that I have with you, on almost all the big pots you got the money in ahead.


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Yeah 8k should be good enough for good player to start at 400NL... dont try 1kNL though. I think I am down 5k in this game at least 3 times a week and I know what I am doing...
(also my playing bankroll is about 50k now and I still think that its not big enough for 2k...)

Best wishes

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Yeah I agree that I didn't have a big enough roll to play, but I felt I had the skills to beat the game. Variance got me. Anyways, I started the long climb yestreday at NL400 and brought back in 1200 (despite losing an $800 pot AA to KK all in pf, i had AA). I think I'll start playing the 1K when I get 20K, and 2K when I get 50K.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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Wait wait so you've played 30k hands and that means you know what you're doing? That definately shows a gross misunderstanding of the game.

I'm sure now you'll think I'm being harsh but I'd bet you anything that if you continue playing and come back in a year or two you'll understand where I'm coming from.

You're not ready for anything close to 2k nl. Not the 1k's either. You might have ok hand skills but your poker maturity isn't there. Play a lot lower.

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Ok, I'm not trying to sound like a jackass, but I have played for about 1.5-2 years, 200K hands of NL poker online. Sorry if you got confused. Its not like I deposited 40K and played online starting at 2000NL. I just posted this because it was really the first time in my career that I had this big of a downswing, and it happened in about 5 days. I'm not going to bore you guys with the beats, but it was quite nasty.

I guess I just needed to vent a little bit. I should be back in a couple months.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

So he basically lost 15 buy ins in 5 days. Who thinks this is variance or could this be poor play. I have seen him play and he is a master hand reader. He usually can put a guy on a hand and acts on it. His plays are fundamentally correct to get all the money in when he is favorite or has the best hand. Most of his beats are complete suck outs. When he thinks he is right he will back it by his stack. Who else plays this way? and how successful have you been at it? who feels this style is flawed?

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
So he basically lost 15 buy ins in 5 days. Who thinks this is variance or could this be poor play. I have seen him play and he is a master hand reader. He usually can put a guy on a hand and acts on it. His plays are fundamentally correct to get all the money in when he is favorite or has the best hand. Most of his beats are complete suck outs. When he thinks he is right he will back it by his stack. Who else plays this way? and how successful have you been at it? who feels this style is flawed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you sure told us. We should all just slink back under our rocks now.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

What do you mean when you are referring to his poker maturity? Are you referring to patience and hand selection? Could you elaborate there, because I think if you do, you could provide him with some very helpful advice.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean when you are referring to his poker maturity? Are you referring to patience and hand selection? Could you elaborate there, because I think if you do, you could provide him with some very helpful advice.

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I think he was referring to bankroll management. And yes, he is correct that playing SH 2000NL I should have had more than 20 buyins.

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

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10k hands is nothing. I dont understand sentence above.. does it mean that you played 10k hands each month ?

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Yeah, I played 10K hands in August, made $30K, 10K hands in Sep., made $28K, before that I was at 1000NL and made $15K in a month there. So yes, I know what I am doing.

DM: You may know what you are doing - you may not. Making 3x the big blind is hardly dominating the game.

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You werent dominating anything. If you in fact had dominated that game you would have much more in your account. Sorry.


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I cashed that all out and put it into the stock market, so it is secure. I'd rather rebuild than risk ruin.

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DM: LMFAO - You put it in the stock market, so it would be secure? This comment makes me wonder what you really know about hold'em. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Better luck to you - learn to accept the need to play lower limits. If you were good enough to get there before, you can do it again - right?

Dogmeat

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

yeah true i wouldnt say stocks are very secure, but definately not capable of losing 50% overnight.

As for the rebuild, it has already begun at NL400. The climb should be much easier this time.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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I think I'll start playing the 1K when I get 20K, and 2K when I get 50K.

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so you learned nothing from all of this is what you're saying?

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

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yeah true i wouldnt say stocks are very secure, but definately not capable of losing 50% overnight.

As for the rebuild, it has already begun at NL400. The climb should be much easier this time.

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ENRON

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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so you learned nothing from all of this is what you're saying?

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Well, the kicker being that if my BR goes down to 30K when I am playing NL2000, I will play 1000 at that point. I failed to do that this time. I think that is a risk I'm willing to take.

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

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yeah true i wouldnt say stocks are very secure, but definately not capable of losing 50% overnight.

As for the rebuild, it has already begun at NL400. The climb should be much easier this time.

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ENRON

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Party (almost)

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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Yeah, I played 10K hands in August, made $30K, 10K hands in Sep., made $28K, before that I was at 1000NL and made $15K in a month there. So yes, I know what I am doing.


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Heh.

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if you ever wanted to quit reading 2p2 you wouldn't be able to because of threads like this

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

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DM: LMFAO - You put it in the stock market, so it would be secure? This comment makes me wonder what you really know about hold'em. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]



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Well we don't know what he means by the stock market. If you pick bad stocks you could be in trouble. On the other hand, if you put it in an index fund, say one tied to the S&P 500, and you have a long run view of that money, you're essentially betting on the American economy not to collapse, which I think is pretty safe bet. And if its not, there probably isn't anything safe to do with your money. Over the next 10, 15, 20 years, I'd be rather suprised if you didn't have 10 % per annum returns with a strategy like that.

--Zetack

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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So he basically lost 15 buy ins in 5 days.

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If I get hit hard two days in a row (often even two sessions in a row) I take a good break from playing for a while. I guess I'm kind of lazy and look for excuses not to play as well, but it has kept me from busting so far. When you lose a lot very quickly, it may seem like bad beats, but a lot of the time poor play is involved. Depending on how you handle loss, you may play too weak or too passive or just refuse to believe your opponents' strong moves and throw money away with weak hands. I suggest taking a break when you get stomped hard.

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

Yeah that's safe or GIC's. At least you kept your winnings unlike most of the young guys who tap out, most just have memories of dumb vegas trips and stripper/escort perfumes....... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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I think I'll start playing the 1K when I get 20K, and 2K when I get 50K.

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NO.

Play NL400 for 60,000 hands. If you are a winner(and have a $20,000 BR), move up.

then...

Play NL600 for 60,000 hands. If you are a winner(and have a $30,000 BR), move up.

then...

Play NL1000 for 100,000 hands. If you are a winner (and have a $70,000 BR), move up.

I've been where you are. This is how I reclimbed the ladder back to the 1k's. I'm a much much better player because of it.

Re: So I just lost 30K...... but the rest is safe in the stock market!
 

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Well we don't know what he means by the stock market. If you pick bad stocks you could be in trouble. On the other hand, if you put it in an index fund, say one tied to the S&P 500, and you have a long run view of that money, you're essentially betting on the American economy not to collapse, which I think is pretty safe bet. And if its not, there probably isn't anything safe to do with your money. Over the next 10, 15, 20 years, I'd be rather suprised if you didn't have 10 % per annum returns with a strategy like that.


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I have it in 3 index funds. iShares small-cap, large-cap, and foreign equities. Its pretty safe... Oh and like 10% in bonds.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

The bankroll management stuff was obvious, I thought, perhaps, he was referring to how you're playing your hands and players. Perhaps tilt could be factored into poker maturity as well.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

I didnt want to waste my time or anyone elses with boring 2 outers all in on the flop. This was bad luck, not tilt.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

I dont know about everyone else, but if I lost 30k, no matter how hard I tried I would at least be slightly on tilt.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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Yeah, I know I can beat this game. I did it for 3 months prior to this, and I did not feel i was running exceptionally well.

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people that beat limit hold'em for 14BB/100 over their first 10k hands don't feel they're running exceptionally well either.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

I think it's pretty ridiculous how so many of the 'big name' players on 2+2 advocate taking shots, but then when someone posts about a shot gone wrong, everyone scolds him for not playing within his bankroll. Sure the OP may be a little arrogant in his post and doesn't know how long the actual long run is, but it sounds like he does know how to play a decent game.

whatever, i gotta go to class.

-DrG

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

The diffrence between taking a shot and playing above your bankroll is that after the shot fails you move back to previous level with sufficient bankroll and when youre playing above your bankroll you dont.
Losing 30k from 40k bankroll wasnt a shot in my opinion...

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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The diffrence between taking a shot and playing above your bankroll is that after the shot fails you move back to previous level with sufficient bankroll and when youre playing above your bankroll you dont.
Losing 30k from 40k bankroll wasnt a shot in my opinion...

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agreed. It was a gamble. And he lost. His current poker bankroll is now around the size of mine, and I make a decent amount of rent/spending money playing the $50 and $100 nl's on that size roll, (3k) so I don't really see what the problem is. He can build it back, he needs to take some time off probably, but he can build it back.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

in regards to the OP, you are probably losing b/c I just started multitabling the party 10/20 NL...watch out jerks I'm on the loose.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty ridiculous how so many of the 'big name' players on 2+2 advocate taking shots, but then when someone posts about a shot gone wrong, everyone scolds him for not playing within his bankroll. Sure the OP may be a little arrogant in his post and doesn't know how long the actual long run is, but it sounds like he does know how to play a decent game.

whatever, i gotta go to class.

-DrG

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Most of the people who scold others for taking shots will play more hundreds of thousands of hands at 3/6 or below before ever settling in at a higher limit, all the while bitching to eachother about the horrible play at higher limits and how they could crush those limits if they just had the bankroll. They don't understand the idea of calculated risk, but they are not nearly as bad as the other end of the spectrum.

That said, the OP isn't describing the behavior of one "taking a shot." The dude dumped 4/5 of his bankroll. This is not responsible shot taking and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of variance. He believes he has proven that he has an edge in a game in which he has lost money overall. Taking shots is one thing, but hopelessly spraying chips hoping for positive variance is blackjack. It doesn't matter what order the money comes and goes, it only matters how much is left at the end of the day.
-James

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty ridiculous how so many of the 'big name' players on 2+2 advocate taking shots, but then when someone posts about a shot gone wrong, everyone scolds him for not playing within his bankroll. Sure the OP may be a little arrogant in his post and doesn't know how long the actual long run is, but it sounds like he does know how to play a decent game.

whatever, i gotta go to class.

-DrG

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I've figured it out.

The "big name" posters that play higher limits want us to take shots so they can take our money when we jump up there with our inferior skills.

The Pyramid at work.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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He believes he has proven that he has an edge in a game in which he has lost money overall.
-James

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This statement is false.

Just to let you know, I have not played 10K hands of NL2000, but 35K, which is not the long run, obviously. I was not taking a shot by any means. I am not down in this game like some of you think... As I recall KKF's winrate was only about 3, so I don't think I can be doing that badly given the fact that I have been on a wicked downswing for 1/3 the hands at this limit.

One thing that is true is that I should have gone back to NL1000 when my BR hit 20-25K, but hey, after losing that much I was not thinking clearly. I realize this was a mistake. I know what bankroll management is, just failed to stay disciplined.

I guess this graph of my all time NL1K, 2K stats proves I am just lucky though...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...r-winnings.jpg

-Jon

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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in regards to the OP, you are probably losing b/c I just started multitabling the party 10/20 NL...watch out jerks I'm on the loose.

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Yeah I just saw you come up to the 2K's, right after I had to drop. I'll see you up there soon hopefully. How are you doing so far?

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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I didnt want to waste my time or anyone elses with boring 2 outers all in on the flop. This was bad luck, not tilt.

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Are you truly being honest with yourself? I'm not mocking you or trying to be an ass, I'm trying to be helpful. We've all had swings, some larger than others, when we truly were playing well, yet kept losing session after session; that really does happen. However, there is not a player alive that can honestly say tilt didn't factor in. Just today I was playing in a full ring, made a healthy raise UTG with pocket kings, everyone folded to the BB who reraised me, I reraise him and he went in immediately. Based on that alone I was positive he didn't have aces so I called. My read was right, he turned over pocket tens, so, here I am, about to double up my stack as an eighty percent favorite. I about crapped myself when he spiked a ten on the river. My first reaction was immediately to reload and get my money back. Fortunately, a little voice inside my head told me, "don't do it" (my inner voice, although bilingual, speaks in Russian, so that's a rough translation). I played the hand right, I was just unlucky, and pissed. Had I rebought to recoup my loss, that would've been tilt. You telling me you never reloaded after something like that and lost more which contributed to your 30k downslide? You probably have, and with time, you'll realize that it's a long long road, one session doesn't mean excrement. I truly hope this helps.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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Are you truly being honest with yourself? I'm not mocking you or trying to be an ass, I'm trying to be helpful. We've all had swings, some larger than others, when we truly were playing well, yet kept losing session after session; that really does happen. However, there is not a player alive that can honestly say tilt didn't factor in. Just today I was playing in a full ring, made a healthy raise UTG with pocket kings, everyone folded to the BB who reraised me, I reraise him and he went in immediately. Based on that alone I was positive he didn't have aces so I called. My read was right, he turned over pocket tens, so, here I am, about to double up my stack as an eighty percent favorite. I about crapped myself when he spiked a ten on the river. My first reaction was immediately to reload and get my money back. Fortunately, a little voice inside my head told me, "don't do it" (my inner voice, although bilingual, speaks in Russian, so that's a rough translation). I played the hand right, I was just unlucky, and pissed. Had I rebought to recoup my loss, that would've been tilt. You telling me you never reloaded after something like that and lost more which contributed to your 30k downslide? You probably have, and with time, you'll realize that it's a long long road, one session doesn't mean excrement. I truly hope this helps.

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I don't understand how reloading after getting all-in with 80% equity and losing is tilt. It is only tilt if it starts to affect your play. I think this is what your were trying to say. Right?

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He believes he has proven that he has an edge in a game in which he has lost money overall.
-James

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This statement is false.

Just to let you know, I have not played 10K hands of NL2000, but 35K, which is not the long run, obviously. I was not taking a shot by any means. I am not down in this game like some of you think... As I recall KKF's winrate was only about 3, so I don't think I can be doing that badly given the fact that I have been on a wicked downswing for 1/3 the hands at this limit.

One thing that is true is that I should have gone back to NL1000 when my BR hit 20-25K, but hey, after losing that much I was not thinking clearly. I realize this was a mistake. I know what bankroll management is, just failed to stay disciplined.

I guess this graph of my all time NL1K, 2K stats proves I am just lucky though...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...r-winnings.jpg

-Jon

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How could you be up 60k and your bankroll is 8k? In your original post, you made it seem like you won this money and promptly lost it back. Where did the other 52k go?
-James

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

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How could you be up 60k and your bankroll is 8k? In your original post, you made it seem like you won this money and promptly lost it back. Where did the other 52k go?
-James

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Indeed. How is this your "all time" stats graph?

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

He mentioned elsewhere in the thread that he put his winnings in the stock-market so it would be 'safe'.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

[ QUOTE ]
obviously. I was not taking a shot by any means.

[/ QUOTE ]


But on that short a bankroll 'taking a shot' would really be the only justification for playing that game.

Some people were just playing 'devils advocate' and arguing that it would be okay to play that high if you were just taking a shot (and a 'controlled one' at that).
But I just don't think there are many on here who will agree that you are appopriately bankrolled to make that your 'permanent' home.


[ QUOTE ]
I know what bankroll management is

[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry....but the fact that you were NOT taking a shot at this game just proves that your assertion that you 'know what bankroll management is' just is not accurate.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Then it dosn't surprise me why you lost so much so fast. It was the reason why I wanted to reload. To get even. The idea that I was entitled because I had the best hand, etc. If you want to sit here and say that you did nothing wrong and the stars are lined up against you, that's you're choice. If you're not even willing for a moment to entertain the possibility that your actions contributed, that's your choice. In that case, however, I don't think you'll find the answers you need. You must be willing to be critical of yourelf, not just make post about bad luck. You even implied yourself that you were too stubborn to drop down a level. You don't post a single example of a hand, just that you lost to two-outers on the river, set over sets, flush over flushes, etc. Again, look at your hand selection. How did you bet those hands, etc. Anyhow, you're right, you didn't do anything wrong, online poker is rigged, don't forget.

Re: So I just lost 30K......
 

Sorry if you misunderstood. I did NOT play perfectly, and don't claim that I did. I can remember some marginal calls I made with top pair, or calling a raise with trip kings although I knew he had the flush. It was just frustrating because even when I stayed level headed, I just couldn't win a hand.

So I would say tilt cost me a MAX of 5K in this swing. The other 25K is just some bad beats. People want to see them, so I will post a couple...

I feel like this thread has turned into me defending my play, which I am fine with, but orginally I was just seeing if this happened to anyone else and how they dealt with it.
I appreciate those who have actually posted something useful (Holdemkillah, edge, russianbear), not "You don't understand variance/you suck".