Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

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I believe I'm the best player left.


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This alone makes it JJ+,AK.

You are shortish, but not very desperate yet, no need to get in "hoping" not to be dominated with a marginal hand, if you can get your $$$ in better against these guys.

Calling tight guy opening for his stack UTG is not a nice place to be without a Group 1 hand.

Especially with you characterizing the big stacks as passive, lots of blinds to steal and coming over the top of open raises still available with your stack.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

I was assuming the $650 didnt matter to LLoyd. I will agree though, that if Lloyd feels he is head and shoulders about the others in talent, then he should tighten his range.
~Justin

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

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my gut says AA-99 AQs+. I dont like calling with AQo here cause I think we see PPs and AK much more than lower aces and KQ.

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AQo is only something like 3% better than AQs heads up.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With an open push and a short stack I think his conceivable range could be Any PP - AK-AT, KQ
~Justin

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So you think he's more likely to push small pairs with a shortstack who might very well call with a wide range of hands?

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

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ok, so we'll give him a range of 66-TT, AK.

Still wanna muck 99?

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Two more questions that warrant consideration.

One, the OP's posting of positions/stacks is confusing. I assume 'CO' is the SB, and 'button' is the BB? Or are both blinds dead from the last hand?

Assuming the former, big stack in the CO/SB, if we call, needs to call 1260 to win 2600, better than 2:1 and a pretty good price for any two broadway, suited aces, etc. I'm going to be worried, if we're talking 99, that I have 3-4 overs to dodge.

Having missed OP's post that he feels he's the best player at the table, then I tighten my range and fold TT as well. Hero is not desperate, and should continue opening pots uncontested, especially with the pay structure as it is and the tight table dynamic.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my gut says AA-99 AQs+. I dont like calling with AQo here cause I think we see PPs and AK much more than lower aces and KQ.

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AQo is only something like 3% better than AQs heads up.

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it's better by more than 4% against AKo. (i think).

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

I'm not sure your skill level should really make a difference on your range here, because everyone is going to be short stacked soon and there's not much difference in skill playing short stacks.

With the prize structure I bet the range is actually bigger than AA-JJ/AK because it pays to take marginal gambles in order to give yourself a realistic shot at winning first.

These spots are not always very intuitive. I wish I was better at intuitively knowing what ICM is going to say.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

5 handed, I will likely push small PPs with a shortish stack as I still have folding equity and even if I am called I am generally not in terrible shape, AK-AJ, KQ, etc, etc. I am obviously dominated by bigger pairs but many of the responses in this thread illustrate why I would play it this way, people are saying their calling ranges are AA-JJ and AK-AQ, I am very likely to not get called. I open up my table image in the process as well and take some blinds.
~Justin

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We're down to the final 5. [deletia]

UTG: t1180
MP: t6275
Hero: t1310
CO: t4145
Button: t590

Blinds 50/100

UTG pushes t1180. I'm positive this is not a steal and he has some sort of real hand. I cannot remember the last time he opened UTG. MP folds and it's on me.


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Really obvious question: Aren't we missing some blinds here? Are you actually on the button? This matters a little because (obviously) the more people still to act behind you, the greater chance you have of running into a real monster.

My range is quite narrow here...probably QQ-AA and AK only.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
5 handed, I will likely push small PPs with a shortish stack as I still have folding equity and even if I am called I am generally not in terrible shape, AK-AJ, KQ, etc, etc. I am obviously dominated by bigger pairs but many of the responses in this thread illustrate why I would play it this way, people are saying their calling ranges are AA-JJ and AK-AQ, I am very likely to not get called. I open up my table image in the process as well and take some blinds.
~Justin

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what you would do, not necessarily what Lloyd thought this UTG would do.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

I am just explaining that that is a possibilty here as well.
~Justin

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 handed, I will likely push small PPs with a shortish stack as I still have folding equity and even if I am called I am generally not in terrible shape, AK-AJ, KQ, etc, etc. I am obviously dominated by bigger pairs but many of the responses in this thread illustrate why I would play it this way, people are saying their calling ranges are AA-JJ and AK-AQ, I am very likely to not get called. I open up my table image in the process as well and take some blinds.
~Justin

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that's what you would do, not necessarily what Lloyd thought this UTG would do.

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And, there is a difference between Lloyd's calling range and the big stack's calling ranges. Lloyd doesn't really want a coin flip; either of the big stacks can afford one. UTG has to take that into account too before he pushes 22.

Also 1100 with 50/100 level just started is shortish but not that short - UTG has time.

I said QQ-88, AK-AQ earlier, mainly because those are the hands that are strong enough to not mind a call but weak enough to not want to see a flop out of position/let a big stack see a flop in position. Clearly he could do this with 77-22 (the likelihood decreases with each pair though), AJ, KQs... but I think it's more likely to be a medium plus pair or a big ace.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

that is both for balance reasons and because I feel a call with AQ is close and marginal.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

Pocket tens or better including AK.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

I am probably more comfortable calling this with QTs or JTs or QJs because whenever someone makes this move I peg them on TT and below and dont want action unless it is all-in preflop. If he is a below average player post flop or is scared of the other players this becomes even more likely. Is villian a well known player on Stars? Do we think he is a successful player who is not worrying about the $650, this info could also help. I havent read this whole thread though, so correct me if they have been touched upon.
~Justin

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

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I just did a huge analysis w/ manual pokerstove calculations vs. various ranges and the session fuking expired and I lost it all. Goddamn i am so pissed.

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FYI we've made Chuck aware of this problem. Lots of people are unhappy about it. Hopefully we'll get it fixed shortly.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

great.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

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(discounting 99 by 1/2)

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how'd you do that on Pokerstove? just make a 9 a dead card?

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You can select a hand like 99 and then on the lower right hand side choose half of the suit combinations.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

doh, that's right.

I use that little bottom right box too. Forgot about it there.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One, the OP's posting of positions/stacks is confusing. I assume 'CO' is the SB, and 'button' is the BB? Or are both blinds dead from the last hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I edited the original post.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

Does anybody disagree with me about taking into consideration ALL of the prize pool, including the $650 for 2nd and 3rd? Yes, I'm playing for first and will not pass up what I think is a +EV situation to increase my chance of winning $650. And I'm willing to make some steal attempts. But I don't think ignoring the $650 for 2nd and 3rd is correct. It should at least be considered.

But I'm open for alternative thoughts.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

When you say "CO: 4145" and "Button: 590" do you mean "SB and BB"?

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you say "CO: 4145" and "Button: 590" do you mean "SB and BB"?

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Yes sorry. I edited thread a couple of minutes ago. Fortunately since they weren't involved in the hand I don't think it makes a difference to those who have already responded.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody disagree with me about taking into consideration ALL of the prize pool, including the $650 for 2nd and 3rd? Yes, I'm playing for first and will not pass up what I think is a +EV situation to increase my chance of winning $650. And I'm willing to make some steal attempts. But I don't think ignoring the $650 for 2nd and 3rd is correct. It should at least be considered.

i think you can pretty much forget about 4th place $$.. .but 2nd and 3rd is dececnt amount of cash.

I don't think it affects your play much though. (or atleast, shouldnt)

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

Im really getting anxious to here an out come here.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Final table of the PokerStars Double Shootout. We're down to the final 5. Winner gets the $12k package. 2nd and 3rd get $650. 4th gets $65. Play has tightened up. The two larger stacks aren't getting into big battles. The shorter ones also seem to be waiting for something to happen. I haven't had much resistance when I've opened pots and I believe I'm the best player left.

UTG: t1180
MP: t6275
Hero: t1310
SB: t4145
BB: t590

Blinds 50/100

UTG pushes t1180. I'm positive this is not a steal and he has some sort of real hand. I cannot remember the last time he opened UTG. MP folds and it's on me.

What range of hands would you call with?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I think he's pushing like... 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+, then I would call with 99+/AQ+. If I think he's pushing more like 66+,ATs+,AJo+, then I would call with TT+/AK. I think that folding any hands that are TT or better here is just silly.

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

Results posted in white below (just in case others want to respond prior to seeing what happened):

<font color="white">I had AQo (although it wouldn't make a difference to me if it was suited or not). I thought the most likely range was 77-JJ, AK with some possibility of AA-QQ, AQ, maybe AJ but I just don't think he pushes all those chips with that. Against his most likely range I was a 3 to 2 dog. Adding AQ and AJ and I'm just a bit behind. Throw in KQ and I'm a very, very slight favorite. With some possibility of AA-QQ I just didn't see this as looking very positive for me.

I figured I was a coin flip. I didn't want to call a coin flip. I would have pushed if it were folded to me but the gap concept prevailed and I folded. He won the pot uncontested.

I wound up getting knocked out 5th when it was folded to the SB who was the big stack, he raised, I had KJo and pushed knowing he'd call. I gave him a much greater liklihood of stealing and figured I was a slight favorite against his range. He had 88 and I lost.

Of course, I wondered how things might have turned out if I had called with AQ. In retrospect, I do think folding was correct but wanted to make sure my judgement was too colored.</font>

Re: PCA DSO Hand - 5 left - Do I make the call?
 

I would have played it the same way you did. How did you end up placing?