Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before I begin with what I have to say I want to add some history:
-I've read 2+2 posts before and never commented until now.
-I've been playing on empire for a a couple years now and have done very well. My income from poker is solid and I've considered going pro.

But the one thing I don't hear anyone on this thread saying is that playing poker is unfullfilling. I work at a big company now and while I don't love my job it gives me pleasure to actually create something. When I play cards I'm always looking for weaknesses in my opponents and ways to exploit them. When I play, I don't create anything and I would like my life to mean something more than the guy who took money from weaker poker players. I've recently decided to not go pro because there is more to life than just playing cards. I agree with having hobbies and gfs is good. But no one mentioned anything about getting satisfaction from building or creating something. Am I alone? I could go pro if I wanted, but I would never create anything. I plan to continue playing to supplement my income because the money is good. But I'm still searching for a way to be productive.

Does anyone else who plays a lot feel this way?

[/ QUOTE ]
I say the reverse, playing poker for a living is much less unfullfilling then working for a big company.

chez

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

as soon as i figured out how playing poker for a living "worked" i realized i wanted to do it rather than be an employee because my whole life i always resented the fact that my pre-planned goal in life seemed to be to get older and get a job that i'd hate. i could probably keep playing poker for the rest of my life to get by but i'm more interested in building up enough capital to get into buisness for myself, THEN play poker recreationally instead of grinding it out 5-8 hours a day like i often do now.

basically for someone like me i consider poker to be something i most certaintly love but it's also a means to an end.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
as soon as i figured out how playing poker for a living "worked" i realized i wanted to do it rather than be an employee because my whole life i always resented the fact that my pre-planned goal in life seemed to be to get older and get a job that i'd hate. i could probably keep playing poker for the rest of my life to get by but i'm more interested in building up enough capital to get into buisness for myself, THEN play poker recreationally instead of grinding it out 5-8 hours a day like i often do now.

basically for someone like me i consider poker to be something i most certaintly love but it's also a means to an end.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here, except being older than you (I guess) my end is to be retired playing poker recreationally and for a bit of extra cash.

chez

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as soon as i figured out how playing poker for a living "worked" i realized i wanted to do it rather than be an employee because my whole life i always resented the fact that my pre-planned goal in life seemed to be to get older and get a job that i'd hate. i could probably keep playing poker for the rest of my life to get by but i'm more interested in building up enough capital to get into buisness for myself, THEN play poker recreationally instead of grinding it out 5-8 hours a day like i often do now.

basically for someone like me i consider poker to be something i most certaintly love but it's also a means to an end.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here, except being older than you (I guess) my end is to be retired playing poker recreationally and for a bit of extra cash.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

sometimes i think about just moving to france or costa rica and living on the beach and playing 20 hours a week and totally giving up on life. that'd be pretty cool.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Amen. Amen.

However, for me I can't replace the normal grind with poker because, well, I lose. LOL!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

To be honest, that might have bothered me in the past.

But my experience is such that I could give a sh't about creating something in corp. USA for the people above me to get the big houses, drive the BMW's and send thier kids to Ivy League Schools.

Anything that would pay me well enough to get out, and give me control of my time, so I could create what I want to, when I want to is just fine by me.

Personally I'd fill that void with building an airplane, or maybe custom guitars and amps. Not sure. But after a good high level survival, not dependant on freakin' "Good Will Employment" is established... well then world is your oyster.

Before that point, you are just the fishie of the richy riches.

True or true?

LOL!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

So tell me, how does playing poker for a living "work"?

A serious question, not a flame.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I'm with you, I don't enjoy making someone else rich. But that misses the heart of my question by a smidge. What I lack right now is a sense of purpose and meaning. I'm doing very well for my age and have money. What I desire is purpose and I don't get that from poker. I think the worst thing I could ever do is go through life and just say well, I played poker and made a lot of money. Because when I look back what can I show for all of my efforts and talent?!?! just the money.

I think anyone that is smart enough to be able to make a living playing cards is very capable. Why waste our talent on something so trivial as poker? This is just how I feel. Like I'm stuck in some rut. No where else can I make as much per hour as I do at poker. But when I play poker I feel like I've wasted my time. Time that could have been spent improving society. This sounds so terribly stupid because I'm not some tree hugger trying to save the manitees.

I just feel that poker is good for money and that's it. I stopped enjoying the game some time ago but continue it because of the dollars.

And maybe I am alone when I say I want to create because I find value in creating.

I really just wanted to see if I was alone...

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with you, I don't enjoy making someone else rich. But that misses the heart of my question by a smidge. What I lack right now is a sense of purpose and meaning. I'm doing very well for my age and have money. What I desire is purpose and I don't get that from poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
The poker phenomena is an enabler for some of us. Maybe you will find your purpose/meaning in your job but some of us never will (not in one that pays proper money anyway).

I play 30+ (normally 40+) hours of poker a week and its a doddle compared to the jobs I've had. Its so much less tiring for me then conventional working was, and so liberating in when I have my free time that I now am able to do the things I always wanted to but couldn't - that is where the meaning of my life is.

Its obviously not for everyone (certainly not for those who can't make the money they need) but for some of us its fantastic. Those who hate the life shouldn't make the mistake of assuming they represent everybody.

chez

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
So tell me, how does playing poker for a living "work"?

A serious question, not a flame.

[/ QUOTE ]

well for me, i realized that if i deposited a rather small amount of money into a poker site ( a little over a year ago ) and then proceeded to learn as much about poker as i could, while playing as much as possible, that my bankroll would grow and i would be able to play higher limits, progressively. once you reach the level of 5/10 or 10/20 ( actually even 3/6 ), there's a good chance that if you're a solid player who pulls in at least 1bb/100 hands ( ideally, plus rakeback ) than your hourly rate at poker will probably be better than the amount you could earn doing any other activity at that moment. i'm not exactly wealthy but it's worked out pretty good for me.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with you, I don't enjoy making someone else rich. But that misses the heart of my question by a smidge. What I lack right now is a sense of purpose and meaning. I'm doing very well for my age and have money. What I desire is purpose and I don't get that from poker. I think the worst thing I could ever do is go through life and just say well, I played poker and made a lot of money. Because when I look back what can I show for all of my efforts and talent?!?! just the money.

I think anyone that is smart enough to be able to make a living playing cards is very capable. Why waste our talent on something so trivial as poker? This is just how I feel. Like I'm stuck in some rut. No where else can I make as much per hour as I do at poker. But when I play poker I feel like I've wasted my time. Time that could have been spent improving society. This sounds so terribly stupid because I'm not some tree hugger trying to save the manitees.

I just feel that poker is good for money and that's it. I stopped enjoying the game some time ago but continue it because of the dollars.

And maybe I am alone when I say I want to create because I find value in creating.

I really just wanted to see if I was alone...

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i know what you mean. i've never really had a serious job though, i used to do landscaping for a friend of my parents and i got some small level of satisfaction from that but i've always got those feelings of accomplishment from bmx ( learning new tricks, finding new things to ride ) and from artwork. you're right, poker is not a very good creative outlet.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

The arguement my Dad (and i guess a lot of people from the middle class -"older generation")
would always make for getting an education and "real" job ( a 9-5 desk job)
was that when you got older you wouldn't be able to do the same things you could do when you were "young" (physical things/manual labor-type jobs wouldn't be an option for you...)
Your body would
go and you needed to be qualified for a desk job working on a computer or something else...

A few of my High School teachers, 1 in particular, would try to motivate us by saying that when we got old, all we'd have would be our minds, as our bodies would go, etc.

Job options were (and are to a large extent I guess...) divided into
blue and white collar... The blue collar typically not requiring a college degree and being more physically demanding, etc. and the
white collar typically
requiring the degree and being in an office somewhere...
(oh, and the
white collar typically pay much better and are much easier to make a "career" out of...after all, after "digging ditches" for 10 years, your back would probably go out!)

Poker is an exception to this - and it makes the game so much more attractive.
When you think about it, poker really has the best of both the blue collar and the white collar worlds...

You don't need a college degree to play, and you don't have to dig ditches or do any heavy lifting or sledge-hammering...
You can even be bound to a wheelchair, etc. and all you have to do is wheel up to the table and play! OR You can sit at home and click a mouse online!
As long as you've got the mental game. And even when your mind goes, you'll still be playing winning poker b/c you'll be so used to making
correct Long-run minded poker decisions after all those decades of play, that
playing good poker will be like breathing for you!

What a great game. It doesn't discriminate...It doesn't require you
to have a high-powered Resume before playing...you can play it on up until you are old and gray.
It what's you make of it - and potentially anybody can do it...
IT's weird as a "job" though, in that you pick to make it your job, you don't have to be "hired."
IMO, It's the best.

And to address the article lol - It depends on one's Point of View what constitutes a "sucky/miserable life."
I'd be playing
chess or computer strategy games (CIV 4 now out! lol) if I wasn't playing poker a lot
of the time during my leisure time,
so...
I'd be in front of the computer anyways! (not making any money too!)

And what is the difference between waking up early after not getting enough sleep the night before,
having to get ready for work, commute (a long distance for some) to some office, and you end up just sitting in front of the computer there
anyway for 8-9 or 10 hours a day...plus you got some boss with half your IQ making decisions over you that negatively effect you and everyone else around you!
Then, you have to commute home, and by the time you get there all you can do is eat and sleep to get ready for the next 8-9 or 10 hour day at your "real job."

To me, this is a torturous, meaningless, and miseable existence.
Everyone has an opinion is all I'm saying...Life's what you make it and you CAN be a happy and
healthy
pro. poker player. You don't have to be miserable.
Just because some
idiot looks at you and judges you saying you are a miserable loser just because you
stay home most days playing online poker, doesn't mean you are.
The person saying that about you is probably unhappy with their lives and it makes them feel
better about themselves to knock you.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
It what's you make of it -

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I mention that poker doesn't care if you can speak english properly? lol

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
The arguement my Dad (and i guess a lot of people from the middle class -"older generation")
would always make for getting an education and "real" job ( a 9-5 desk job)
was that when you got older you wouldn't be able to do the same things you could do when you were "young" (physical things/manual labor-type jobs wouldn't be an option for you...)
Your body would
go and you needed to be qualified for a desk job working on a computer or something else...

A few of my High School teachers, 1 in particular, would try to motivate us by saying that when we got old, all we'd have would be our minds, as our bodies would go, etc.

Job options were (and are to a large extent I guess...) divided into
blue and white collar... The blue collar typically not requiring a college degree and being more physically demanding, etc. and the
white collar typically
requiring the degree and being in an office somewhere...
(oh, and the
white collar typically pay much better and are much easier to make a "career" out of...after all, after "digging ditches" for 10 years, your back would probably go out!)

Poker is an exception to this - and it makes the game so much more attractive.
When you think about it, poker really has the best of both the blue collar and the white collar worlds...

You don't need a college degree to play, and you don't have to dig ditches or do any heavy lifting or sledge-hammering...
You can even be bound to a wheelchair, etc. and all you have to do is wheel up to the table and play! OR You can sit at home and click a mouse online!
As long as you've got the mental game. And even when your mind goes, you'll still be playing winning poker b/c you'll be so used to making
correct Long-run minded poker decisions after all those decades of play, that
playing good poker will be like breathing for you!

What a great game. It doesn't discriminate...It doesn't require you
to have a high-powered Resume before playing...you can play it on up until you are old and gray.
It what's you make of it - and potentially anybody can do it...
IT's weird as a "job" though, in that you pick to make it your job, you don't have to be "hired."
IMO, It's the best.

And to address the article lol - It depends on one's Point of View what constitutes a "sucky/miserable life."
I'd be playing
chess or computer strategy games (CIV 4 now out! lol) if I wasn't playing poker a lot
of the time during my leisure time,
so...
I'd be in front of the computer anyways! (not making any money too!)

And what is the difference between waking up early after not getting enough sleep the night before,
having to get ready for work, commute (a long distance for some) to some office, and you end up just sitting in front of the computer there
anyway for 8-9 or 10 hours a day...plus you got some boss with half your IQ making decisions over you that negatively effect you and everyone else around you!
Then, you have to commute home, and by the time you get there all you can do is eat and sleep to get ready for the next 8-9 or 10 hour day at your "real job."

To me, this is a torturous, meaningless, and miseable existence.
Everyone has an opinion is all I'm saying...Life's what you make it and you CAN be a happy and
healthy
pro. poker player. You don't have to be miserable.
Just because some
idiot looks at you and judges you saying you are a miserable loser just because you
stay home most days playing online poker, doesn't mean you are.
The person saying that about you is probably unhappy with their lives and it makes them feel
better about themselves to knock you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen up, you whippersnapper, get a real job and earn your keep! Why, in my day, we had to work for a living! Sure, times were tough, but a man could put bread on the table and while learning the real value of money!

Dagnabbit. Kids these days. 23 skidoo with you, young fella!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hi ptmusic,
Well, judging by your handle, you really wanted to be a rock star anyway. I can relate to that. The myth of "doing whatever you want, making a ton of money, smashing up hotel rooms, and... groupie! Yeah".

But like being a rock star there are some things to think about.

Gotta make an upfront investment.

It might not work, in which case you'll be worse off than a regular job.

You can work for a day, a week, 1400 hours was it? A year... and lose money.

I 'spose it's like any other startup business in that respect. Or perhaps, as I see it, more closely aligned with being a self financed floor trader.

I do agree with many he points you make about the "pros" though. And I'd add that connections, etc. won't get in your way. If you and Bill Gates sit down and play... you have trip A's... he has trip K's... the pot's yours... no matter who Bill is. Can't get more fair than that. The rules are exactly the same for everyone. (A point I'm attracted to.)

But, like just about all "glamour" jobs, many try, few make it.

And I think some 9-5 detractors you missed were, "rightsizing" and "obsolecence"... which can lead to..."Will that be fries with that?"

If you want it, go for it. But having a backup plan wouldn't be a bad idea either.

I seem to recall one view on mission planning went this way...

1) Study the Problem
2) Devise a Plan
3) Train to execute The Plan
4) Execute the Plan
5) ... Have a contingency plan for when The Plan fails ...

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hi Mason,
I'm curious, did you guys have anything to do with getting poker on TV, or was it just a happy windfall for 2+2?

I can recall thinking about the same idea back aroun '99-ish. To bad I'm not a TV producer. LOL!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hi 12AX7:

We had nothing to do with the poker TV shows.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

It even leaves time to light up the 12AX7's I bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hi lrt125,
I agree with your philosophical sentiments. We could all be trying to improve the world.

But unlike you I *don't* have enough money sitting around to say "Geez, what would I like to do today." And that's after being a working person since I was 14 (I'm 43 now).

My empirical experience is that the world is, and has always been tilted to the rich and most normal work can really be classified as being a cog in someone else's wheel.

That's fine if you can get paid enough to eventually be wealthy and autonomous from it. However that's not generally the case.

Now, when I was a kid the old, "Go to school get a good job, work to 55-65, retire" thing still existed. That started to fall apart around '87. In Oct. 87 the market crashed. At the company I was at, a top 10 fortune 500, a plan to reduce headcount was out by Nov. 87. And that trend has continued to this day.

It's my opinion that the people at the top are quite happy to walk the line where they let out just enough wealth that we don't all revolt, and no more. They do not strike me as idealists, or utopians or whatever.

Clearly the technology exists to solve *every* massive problem of the world today. But it does not happen. Because we measure in dollars, not "universal goodness units" or whatever.

We've set the whole thing up as a competition, not a collaboration. So interestingly, poker is probably a great metaphor for many aspects of it.

So until the vast majority decide to hold a leaders feet to the fire to build the world we want, rather than being sheep, it'll probably never change.

Like most, my feeling is my life is too short, and my span of control to small to make any real impact.

Now, perhaps if I was some charismatic leader type I could change all that. But that's probably not the case.

Anyway, back to your point. Yes, I defintely have days where I find myself thinking, "Could I build a [fill in the blank, usually an airplane or something]?"

But the reason I cannot is the same old working person's dilemma.

"If I have the cash flow, I have no time. If I have the time, chances are I'm out of work and can't use the cash for a project".

Same old BS. The world hasn't changed all that much from a socio-economic structural standpoint, for a long time.

Bottom Line: Other's feel like you do. But the first level of Maslow's hierachy takes precedent of the higher levels.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

LOL!, Yeah them good ol' 12AX7's right up there with EL34s and 6550 and 6L6s with me! :-)

Sadly, these days I use a PODxt mostly. Nowhere to crank real amp up at 3 am. These days. Even my littlest 30 watt Marshall would probably have someone knocking at the door where I'm living these days. Let alone the 100 watter. LOL!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi 12AX7:

We had nothing to do with the poker TV shows.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically when WPT season 1 was in production you posted a request for stats and info tidbits for before and after commercials [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Let me preface this by saying that I am not a winning player, and have no intention of quitting my "day job" to play poker for a living (good thing considering I can't beat the game). I think a lot of what is being said is rather obvious, in that there are positives and negatives to going pro (as with all things). Most people who are critizing the article regarding the negatives involved with going pro seem to be in a sense taking offense to what the author says. Putting your personal feelings about the subject aside for a moment, I'm sure most will see the benefits that this article should have on the "wannabe" pros out there. I know a lot of these types myself, in fact, a few close friends of mine fall under this heading. The poker boom has created a situation, in this country especially, whereby a lot of our youth actually believe that the "Moneymaker scenario" is not only possible, but in effect easy to accomplish. These are the "glory-hogs." I'm not saying that the majority of 2+2'er's think this way. I'm sure most of the contributors to this website are serious, winning players who can handle playing poker for a living regardless of the apparent drawbacks. I think the author was simply alerting the young aspiring pros that poker is hard work. I don't think that is necessarily a bad idea considering that everywhere you look nowadays, you see kids in high school, and sometimes grammar school, playing poker for money. This is a phenomenon that may prove dangerous to those who think they can beat the game, and that doing so is easy, especially at a young age. Lets face it, young people are, and always will be, very impressionable. They're watching ESPN, and they're seeing people making money playing a card game. What could be more appealing? They see people playing a game, having fun, and winning millions of dollars! They see the gifted young players, some not much older than themselves, going out there and doing it. They may think, "Hey, they can do it, why not me?" They see it as an easy way to be "famous" and to live a dream. Why bother studying in school, educating themselves, and thinking of actual career goals when they can "EASILY" make money playing cards? In TOP, Sklansky says early on, to think of poker as a glamourous thing is a very very bad idea. I don't see anything wrong with the author of the going pro article stating that. And you know what, if you don't find the article helpful, or relevent, then simply move on. Just because you don't like a particular article, doesn't mean it doesn't have value to someone else. I applaud the author, and 2+2 magazine for that matter, for publishing articles such as these. The fact is, poker can be as fulfilling as anything else, but it depends on the person doing the playing. This article is basically cautionary, or I suppose, precautionary, and there is nothing wrong with that IMO. That being said, its like anything else, its all relative. Going pro, for the author of this article, is a unique situation to him, and will be different for anyone else. Going pro would be different for me, and for one of my wannabe friends, and for my neighbor, and for my colleague, and for whoever. It all depends on the individual, and the author basically tells us in his conclusion that he just wanted to share HIS experience, and I thank him for it. It puts into perspective just how difficult it is, and I think that subject deserves to be acknowledged.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

If you can't beat the game it must be because the game is rigged.

If you can beat the game but cannot beat it for more than "X" it's obvious that anyone who claims they can beat it for more than "X" is lying about their success(es).

If the "liar" shows you indisputable proof that backs up their claims they are obviously cheating and/or unbelievably lucky.

If you watch them play long enough to see that they are clearly not lucky it's obvious that you are unlucky.



I have finally decided that the only way to deal with the naysayers is to tell them they are "probably right"; I have no skill - well, none to speak of, and neither do any of the 1,000's of people who earn all or most of their income from poker.

It's OK; I don't mind being seen as a "lucky SOB".

The money spends as well as it did when I was doing something more cerebral.

Jane - you ignorant [censored]
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone who averages $4000+ per month at 3/6 without playing some absurd number of hands should be moving up pretty quick. So what you will find is that no one who is good enough to prove this claim will actually stick around long enough to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow - they censored $lut ?

- It was just a Christmas gift to those who hold fond memories for the REAL "Saturday Night Live".



I have several friends who earn ~ $4,000/month playing 2-4 thru 5-10 and several more whose win rates would equate to 4k/month if they played full time.

Of the former group, two are stay at home Moms, one is a stay at home Dad, two more are [semi] professional writers, one is finishing his thesis and one simply has no ambition whatsoever and will never move beyond the lower limits. (The brackets surounding "semi" are meant to acknowledge that despite their talent neither has ever nor likely will ever make a living with their keyboard).

The second group is composed mostly of college students and the like who for one reason or another are either not good enough to move up (not everyone adhere's to the Peter Principle) or are unable or unwilling to stash away enough to fund a leap to the next level.

- There are more than a few out there who succeed, flourish or even excel at the [mechanical] nature of 2-4/3-6 but who fall flat on their face when they attemt an attack on the higher limits where the games are typically played at a much faster pace.

It's more or less accepted wisdom that there are those who make names for themselves in big games but lack the ability (or more often the patience and discipline) to beat the smaller ones; why should it be so difficult to accept that there would be [many] more of the opposite ?