Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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This seems like a routine preflop fold to me.

-Jason

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why are you picking on me?

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

Isn't he the "M" factor Magriel?

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

As Lloyd said in his post Magreil's stack was huge but I also don't know what the denoms were.My point was only that Hellmuth went in a slight dog and whined about it as always.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

I don't remember the exact hand but I remember that the same old dude made a VERY similar play prior to the AA hand. No telling how much time went in between the hands in real life but on tv is was probably 5-10 hands.

I would have gone broke. I also think the majority of 2+2'ers would too.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

These announcers are the worst. I'd rather have Lederer commenting alone with a sore throat boarding on larengitis than these fools. They praise the play of the fossil who was so brilliant in checking the nuts - anyone looks good playing the nuts - hands like that play themselves, right? Wrong! Because the amateur played it like an amateur. He made many mistakes which all of you pointed out - he overbet into a player who has demonstrated a preference to play smaller pots and make conservative laydowns to avoid these big confrontations. Second he talked way too much to Hellmuth, a master at reading voices and he seemed way too comfortable doing it. Phil picked up on this. I think if he made two 5k bets and said nothing he would have been well rewarded. Anyone with me on these crappy announcers?

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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I don't remember the exact hand but I remember that the same old dude made a VERY similar play prior to the AA hand. No telling how much time went in between the hands in real life but on tv is was probably 5-10 hands.

I would have gone broke. I also think the majority of 2+2'ers would too.

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the only other hand they showed was him cold calling w/ QQ.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

Eh, i don't really need the announcers to point out to me he played the hand porrly. I can see that for myself. (though it would be easier with a stack-size, blind-size and pot-size 'scoreboard' type thing)

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

um, yeah. they are, but its cool with me, because then you get moer and more products of espn who play that way because "norman chad said it was right"

the old guy gave him reads that even I could see, and I've never gone to a B&M. Im still wondering why he didnt bet 1/2-pot on the flop. If you think abuot Phil's range of calling hands, an ace is in most of em.

Yes, in the heat of battle it was a great laydown... but Negreanus were much much harder to make.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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These announcers are the worst. I'd rather have Lederer commenting alone with a sore throat boarding on larengitis than these fools. They praise the play of the fossil who was so brilliant in checking the nuts - anyone looks good playing the nuts - hands like that play themselves, right? Wrong! Because the amateur played it like an amateur. He made many mistakes which all of you pointed out - he overbet into a player who has demonstrated a preference to play smaller pots and make conservative laydowns to avoid these big confrontations. Second he talked way too much to Hellmuth, a master at reading voices and he seemed way too comfortable doing it. Phil picked up on this. I think if he made two 5k bets and said nothing he would have been well rewarded. Anyone with me on these crappy announcers?

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I hope you're not talking smack about THE Norman.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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Hellmuth raised, Magriel re-raised, folded to Hellmuth who pushed. Magriel had excellent odds and called. Not sure how many chips he had there but it didn't seem like losing was going to hurt him too much - he had a big stack, just not sure the denominations.

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Yeah, my beef is with Magriel's reraise then. WHY reraise big Phil with 7s. What is phil raising with that you beat? I don't think Phil has a LAG rep, so like I said earlier, you're still hoping for a coinflip, for a lot of chips. I just don't see the point.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

AK is not an implied odds hand, it is the king of reverse implied odds. The fact is, when you call a reraise preflop you are hoping to flop TPTK 30% of the time. Those times you will not win much more when catching your pair puts you ahead, but you will lose a lot when you make 2nd best. With deep stacks most players dramatically overvalue AK, then again with shallow stacks plenty of players dramatically undervalue it.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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This seems like a routine preflop fold to me.

-Jason

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i guess you mean to the minraise. I can see that vs. him if you put him on AK,AA-JJ.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

Phil comes back raving after that guy who can't spell pohker puts a bad beat on him. First hand he plays (at least it looks that way on TV) he raises. I think Magriel thought Hellmuth could be on just a little tilt and even if he's raising with a decent hand might just lay it down since Magriel's raise is committing Hellmuth's entire stack. So it's reasonable to think that given the range of hands Hellmuth could be raising with that he'd fold to that large of a re-raise. Particularly since Hellmuth is known to lay down some big hands. And if Hellmuth pushes, Magriel hopes to at least be "off to the races".

Think about it, Hellmuth put all of his chips in the pot with AQ knowing that Magriel had odds to call. What hands is Hellmuth ahead of? AJ? Hellmuth made a bad decision here.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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Phil comes back raving after that guy who can't spell pohker puts a bad beat on him. First hand he plays (at least it looks that way on TV) he raises. I think Magriel thought Hellmuth could be on just a little tilt and even if he's raising with a decent hand might just lay it down since Magriel's raise is committing Hellmuth's entire stack. So it's reasonable to think that given the range of hands Hellmuth could be raising with that he'd fold to that large of a re-raise. Particularly since Hellmuth is known to lay down some big hands. And if Hellmuth pushes, Magriel hopes to at least be "off to the races".

Think about it, Hellmuth put all of his chips in the pot with AQ knowing that Magriel had odds to call. What hands is Hellmuth ahead of? AJ? Hellmuth made a bad decision here.

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It seemed like Phil was committed to call most any raise (even one to put him all in) or push over someone else's raise, after Phil made his original raise because he was somewhat low stacked. The only time he wouldnt is if it went push, and call, or something. I don't think we know Phil's exact stack, but that's the impression I got.

Magriel had to have known this. Or at least that there's a good chance phil is gonna push. If I knew that, I would just fold 7s.

It seemed to me phil was pretty committed after his initial raise. The only reason he didn't open push probably is that he probably wanted some action. It didn't seem like phil's move was that bad, especially if we know Magriel has a laggy image.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

I haven't read any responses, but I think it was clear that the old man was waaayy too relaxed when Hellmuth was coffeehousing and Phil picked up on that.

Phil actually did a good job of getting him to show top set after the hand too. Kind of impressed with his play on the hand, except for checking in the dark.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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AK is not an implied odds hand, it is the king of reverse implied odds. The fact is, when you call a reraise preflop you are hoping to flop TPTK 30% of the time. Those times you will not win much more when catching your pair puts you ahead, but you will lose a lot when you make 2nd best. With deep stacks most players dramatically overvalue AK, then again with shallow stacks plenty of players dramatically undervalue it.

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I know, that's why I asked how deep he needed to be to make the call with AK *knowing* he had AA.

Everyone flamed me in the "Hand with the Masters" thread for wanting to open limp AK in EP.

I do that because of the big reverse-implied odds, you often either win a small one or lose a big one.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

pretty much deeper than any tourney structure allows.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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pretty much deeper than any tourney structure allows.

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Fair answer.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

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Yes upon watching this I as shouting to my friends that Phil is amazing but now this makes alot of obvious sense. Some questions...


SossMan: Why is that a good example of why you should reraise when deep stacked? I also don't know who you meant to raise, and why? Please clarify.

KingDan: How is it a tough lay down?

Lloyd: What do you mean WPT discussion forum? Is that a joke because their boards suck? I've never been to them.

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Well, I think a few of the people who are claiming this to be a super routine fold would lose a big pot here.
It is possible I would notice the stereotypical shrug before betting
I'd like to think I would pick it up everytime, but seeing the cards helps a lot.

Re: Hellmuth\'s AK hand
 

OT: Enjoy Thierry breaking the record yesterday? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]