All the Debate Proves the Point
 

You can't fold AK here. Might you be up against KQ sure. Might you be up a set of x, sure. Might you be up against J10, or J10 of spades, or A10 of spades or QJ of spades, yup. AK just plays to well against that range to fold.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

I don't like hero's line.

If he intends to check the turn if called then hero should bet less. If he intends to lead the turn then maybe bet more.

He should bet less because he has already anounced a big hand, and should try and keep the pot small.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Yes.
It also depends on the pro and his read of villain.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe,

a pocket pair still has outs for starters.

This hand is about fold equity against a tight player. I have no idea what villain's capabilities are here but hero has backed away from the hand (after leading the flop), and villain doesn't need a hand to represent KQ or (55). Hero is probably uncomfortable for having missed the opportunity to raise BTF. Essentially I think the possibility of the Harrington 10% is not out of the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

You honestly think the villain called with say... 99? There is really no logic behind your reasoning, you are just saying its possible. I can't honestly beleive the villain would call with junk with 4 people behind him, with the intention of blowing the internet donk off of tptk on a blank turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that people are saying that you should fold AK leads me to think that a garbage hand / superdraw is possible. I didn't say that the hero had a internet donkey read. Just that he hadn't played very many hands and possibly had a weaktight image to the pro. Probably the pro could tell that it was his first big tourney and he didn't want to go home just yet.

Re: All the Debate Proves the Point
 

[ QUOTE ]
All the debate proves the point that this would be a great bluff if it

1) was against an opponent who looks to know what he's doing,

2) wasn't after a weird preflop situation that may very well have given your opponent tunnel vision, and

3) didn't require calling on the flop with 2^20 people behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If pro's bluffing here, he plays bad poker, IHMO.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Pro was Joe Cassidy.

Hero was our own Double Eagle.

DE tanked for 3 minutes and finally decided that this was his hand and pushed. Cassidy reluctantly called.

DE said, "KQ?"
JC said, "nope" and flipped over KJ.

AK holds up.

Re: All the Debate Proves the Point
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All the debate proves the point that this would be a great bluff if it

1) was against an opponent who looks to know what he's doing,

2) wasn't after a weird preflop situation that may very well have given your opponent tunnel vision, and

3) didn't require calling on the flop with 2^20 people behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If pro's bluffing here, he plays bad poker, IHMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

it should be noted that the blinds checked, so he only has two players who haven't acted on the flop.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pro was Joe Cassidy.

Hero was our own Double Eagle.

DE tanked for 3 minutes and finally decided that this was his hand and pushed. Cassidy reluctantly called.

DE said, "KQ?"
JC said, "nope" and flipped over KJ.

AK holds up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think pro played horribly.

Re: All the Debate Proves the Point
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All the debate proves the point that this would be a great bluff if it

1) was against an opponent who looks to know what he's doing,

2) wasn't after a weird preflop situation that may very well have given your opponent tunnel vision, and

3) didn't require calling on the flop with 2^20 people behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If pro's bluffing here, he plays bad poker, IHMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

it should be noted that the blinds checked, so he only has two players who haven't acted on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What % of time does hero check this flop? Everyone has position on hero.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pro was Joe Cassidy.

Hero was our own Double Eagle.

DE tanked for 3 minutes and finally decided that this was his hand and pushed. Cassidy reluctantly called.

DE said, "KQ?"
JC said, "nope" and flipped over KJ.

AK holds up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Is it possible that Cassidy missed the preflop bobble? In that case, I can understand his play, although I still think the flop call is very questionable.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose KJ suited has some decent implied odds-- although really not good.

I hate his preflop call regardless. What does he hope to accomplish? If he was on the button and it was folds to him, I can understand wanting to take a flop heads up with an internet donk (I know he's not a donk).

I hate his flop call, and I can think of almost no justification for it.

His turn bet was if anything the only decent part of the hand, esp if he puts hero on AK, and thinks he will fold a reasonable % of the time.

All in all, I think this hand was played donktastically by Cassidy.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't if he plans to not play like he decided to. He called 300 for a chance to play against a player who's likely not in a good mental state and has a good hand. I takes a full pot of ~7.5k frequently enough to make this play profitable or at least not nearly as -EV as the flop call.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

It's very hard to criticize someone's judgement call about his FE.

It's obvious enough that Cassidy knew where he was at in the hand when he called the flop and bet the turn. He misjudged DE's willingness to call, probably based on prior observed behaviour.

The flop call doesn't work for me because I want more outs (I don't trust my read that much), but that's a limitation in my game.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's very hard to criticize someone's judgement call about his FE.

It's obvious enough that Cassidy knew where he was at in the hand when he called the flop and bet the turn. He misjudged DE's willingness to call, probably based on prior observed behaviour.

The flop call doesn't work for me because I want more outs (I don't trust my read that much), but that's a limitation in my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the odds that someone who played this hand this way (especially how they played it preflop) folds are really really low. The player must be upset with himself here, and his check on the turn makes his hand even harder to fold.

I still want your thoughts on Cassidy just not noticing the preflop crap, SossMan.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
T300 with position on Hero, I'd gamble.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

No... If hero has AK and Joe catches two pair against him, he has a chance to break the hero. Also, if hero has QQ, Joe can bust him on a K high flop b/c hero could be flustered from this mistake and get him to put in his whole stack. Inexperienced players tend to get very frustrated by mistakes made out of inexperience, and therefore make more mistakes throughout the rest of the hand. If I were in Joe's spot, I would call with any two relatively playable cards looking to flop big and break hero.

Also, I think Joe is still working on his NL game and doesn't quite understand it all that well yet(This doesn't mean he is bad, just that his limit game is light years ahead of his NL game as that is his specialty and he's one of the best in the world at it.)

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

No... If hero has AK and Joe catches two pair against him, he has a chance to break the hero. Also, if hero has QQ, Joe can bust him on a K high flop b/c hero could be flustered from this mistake and get him to put in his whole stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, when the flop comes Kxx, Joe should stack his opponent if he has QQ, but fold if his opponent's got AK?

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think pro played horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

No... If hero has AK and Joe catches two pair against him, he has a chance to break the hero. Also, if hero has QQ, Joe can bust him on a K high flop b/c hero could be flustered from this mistake and get him to put in his whole stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, when the flop comes Kxx, Joe should stack his opponent if he has QQ, but fold if his opponent's got AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm saying is that the hero's state of mind is off. He will tend to overplay QQ here b/c he doesn't want to be bluffed, and he may fold AK for the same reason. Obviously, Joe is going to have to fun with his read after the flop and figure out if he thinks his hand is good or not. But I don't think his preflop call is bad b/c of the likely frustrated state of mind of hero. That's why this is poker, not cards.

From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

First of all, one correction - the young pro was not Joe Cassidy, but a very good (and aggressive) young Swedish pro, Matts Rahmn. Joe was directly to my left and I discussed the hand with him (and Matts) afterwards - Soss was probably confused by that....

A few points:

1) This hand occured right after the dinner break and we had been playing together all day. I was playing very ABC and had only shown one hand (a flopped broadway that ended up getting counterfeited), so my image is at least tight and probably W/T.

2) At the time I was sure that it was obvious I intended to raise PF and Joe and Matts both confirmed it.

3) Matts said afterwards he played it pretty badly and that my turn check made him lean towards AQ as a probable holding and that even if I did have AK there was a chance I would fold to strength.

4) Puking was a definite possibility. I tanked for what felt like forever but pretty much came to the same conclusion that MLG did - but would not have been surprised to have been going home.

5. You would think you would only do the accidental call thing once.....

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else hate pro's PF call more than any other part of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
T300 with position on Hero, I'd gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, the best thing about being UTG+1 is that you have position on UTG. That advice will be in my book. Volume II will address how you get rid of the rest of the table.

The difficulty of pro's decision on the flop illustrates why it's ugly to be in this hand. I hate the flat call, but raising is an expensive proposition with 4 players left to act.

Many people wouldn't play KJ from early position if they were first in. So why would you want to play it with the knowledge that UTG has a raising hand?

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, one correction - the young pro was not Joe Cassidy, but a very good (and aggressive) young Swedish pro, Matts Rahmn. Joe was directly to my left and I discussed the hand with him (and Matts) afterwards - Soss was probably confused by that..

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i confuse easily. Sorry.


[ QUOTE ]
5. You would think you would only do the accidental call thing once.....




[/ QUOTE ]

It's okay, at least you didn't fold AA on a QQ5 board to the re-reraise getting 1.6:1.

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

what tourney was this?

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

the one you came in 10th


yes, i'm late to the party.

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

[ QUOTE ]

3) Matts said afterwards he played it pretty badly and that my turn check made him lean towards AQ as a probable holding


[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me hate his play more. Thinking that someone with a weak-tight image bets into a family pot OOP with AQ on a KQx. At least trying to push someone off AK is respectable [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Also, if you have AQ here, why would he want to push? If I had a hole-card cam here and saw your AQ, I'd call flop, check behind on turn, and bet/raise any non-A, non-Q river (I guess the river decision's pretty obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Of course, this line is horrible if you actually have AK.

I think he out-thought himself into just about the worst line he could've taken.

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

I wasn't at the table so its hard to judge exactly what to do, but based on what was posted, I don't see myself folding AK here!

People do sometimes bet without top pair top kicker, a lot more than this forum seems to be suggesting in the early responses to this thread. Not everyone is a genius who understands that you obviously have AA and thus they can't ever bet without having it beat.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

I was an internet donkey in a Bellagio satellite. I wonder how many of us have donked this way.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, the best thing about being UTG+1 is that you have position on UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, missed that he was UTG+1. Yeah, I'd probably fold KJ there.

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

[ QUOTE ]
5. You would think you would only do the accidental call thing once.....

[/ QUOTE ]

So just to be sure, if you don't announce "raise" when you throw in one chip, that is bigger than the call would be, then it is just a call, and they have to make change. Right?

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

yep

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

I am still trying to figure out why there were so many callers before the flop. Oh well.

Re: From the Donkey\'s Mouth....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5. You would think you would only do the accidental call thing once.....

[/ QUOTE ]

So just to be sure, if you don't announce "raise" when you throw in one chip, that is bigger than the call would be, then it is just a call, and they have to make change. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but the rule has nothing to do w/ having to make change or not. It's to prevent ambiguity in regards to the player's intent. If he doesn't say anything, it's a call. period.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am still trying to figure out why there were so many callers before the flop. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read Gavin's post. Calling here with anything half decent is correct.