Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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there is no shame in profiting from the actions of others who would not heed the Word of God.


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How Christian.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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there is no shame in profiting from the actions of others who would not heed the Word of God.


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How Christian.

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Kid,

Do you see what I have to deal with as an apologist? What did NotReady say about someone else being an easy target?

RJT

What have feelings got to do with it?
 

Surely as a Christian you decide what is right according to your faith and that's it. What have your feelings of guilt etc got to do with it? That is the "advantage" of a belief in a God-imposed absolute moral position: it is what it is and you can get on with life without worrying about it (if you keep to the imposed moral standards). You can worry about it instead, of course, but what does that do?

Is it your belief that playing poker for money is proscribed by your religion:yes stop playing, no you have a choice. easy-peasy!

Of course, if you don't know what you actually believe in or should believe or think you might not belive in what you should believe in in you may believe you have good cause to worry: eternal damnation last an awefully long time, i understand!

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

What if the fish you are playing love the game of poker and want to improve their skills? They are surely aware of the financial risk they are taking and may want to play the best competition possible. If you become aware of someone with an obvious gambling problem, and their actions are hurting them and others around them, then you have a moral problem. Otherwise, by not playing your best game, you are cheating the players of the purest poker playing experience. I personally dislike it when people take dives for my sake.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Thanks for all your thoughtful posts. Based heavily on the arguments of Josh_W and sexdrugsmoney, I've decided to re-enter the poker world with a clear conscience.

Borrowing from Josh_W's practices, I will be donating 30% of my winnings each month to www.gospelforasia.com and other charities that I find worthwhile.

See you at the tables. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I'm ready to kick some ass.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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My main objection with your post is sort of the same as the one I posted earlier to Peter666's response to my question.

Reply to Peter666

Basically, just because others sin doesn't make it okay for us to cast stones at them.

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hi jcaesar... i do not mean "cast stones" at others. i mean go about your work like the first worker in the parable, diligently and conscientiously. there is no "vengeance" to be taken or "punishment" for you to deal out. your ability to win at the tables will only come about through hard work, and if others would choose to gamble their money away, their loss is your just reward... you are not doing anything 'immoral' so to say.
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I agree with this, and I have to admit that I am a purveyor of the concept as well. For example, I make friendly comments to bad players who suck out in hope that they won't pull a hit and run. One of the organizations I'll try to get involved with with donations if I do end up deciding to get back in the game is Gamblers Anonymous.

Thanks, I'm interested in hearing your reply.

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hmm i think joining gamblers anonymous is not a substitute for not being a stumbling block. you can't compensate for a wrong by doing a right... i think that is very biblical.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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I have a question. Where in the bible does it say not to gamble?

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Gambling is a sin. Here are some resources for you:

http://www.peapac.org/guide_98/98_sb_gambling.asp
http://www.biblestudyguide.org/bible...s/gambling.htm
http://www.rpc.org/morals/gambling.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-g001.html

So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

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It doesn't have to say 'thou shalt not gamble.' Just like it doesn't have to say 'thou shalt not jerk off to naked pics of Asia Carrera.'

Follow the spirit of the bible, not the word.

I think the above links pretty much put the nail in the coffin about gambling being a sin. Unless this is one of those convenient disagreements between Christians that allow them to rationlize behavior others look down on.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Gambling is a sin. Here are some resources for you:

http://www.peapac.org/guide_98/98_sb_gambling.asp
http://www.biblestudyguide.org/bible...s/gambling.htm
http://www.rpc.org/morals/gambling.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-g001.html

So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

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On the other hand, if one is a winning professional poker player, then the point that one is being irresponsable with ones money. In fact, it is engaging your money in an activity that can be expected to bring a positive rate or return, which seems, in fact, responsable, as long as you are careful not to overextend your bankroll. Also, poker pros playing in ring games I do not believe consider themselves to be earning money quickly, which the top site warns again. This may be diffrent for tournament players I suppose.

That dosn't deal with the "Thou Shall Not Steal" issue. My brother in law has the same objection to poker, actully, because he dosn't care for the idea of taking money from other individuals in exchange for nothing. Interestingly, while he dosn't care for casinos a great deal, he does live in Las Vegas and he'll play games where he's betting against the house because he dosn't mind taking their money. I pointed out to him that they're just a middleman for someone elses money, but then he came back with the fact that he dosn't expect to win when he plays, since the games are unfair in favor of the casino, so he only plays with extra money to have something to do with friends and the like.

Of corse, at least at the poker table people know what they're getting into by sitting down with you, and are thusly agreeing on some level to put their property at risk. There's a lot of things that a person could do as a more "normal" job that has the effect of victimizing people who havn't given any kind of implied concent to it at all. Think about companies that run sweatshops and such. Related to that, there was a link above that made the distinction that its not gambling to invest in business because business was inherintly good for society and provided to others. That made me chuckle. Not that I'm saying business is inherintly bad, but there are plenty of ways they harm individuals or groups of people.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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'thou shalt not jerk off to naked pics of Asia Carrera.'


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I know what I'll be doing in about 5 minutes.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Gambling is a sin. Here are some resources for you:

http://www.peapac.org/guide_98/98_sb_gambling.asp
http://www.biblestudyguide.org/bible...s/gambling.htm
http://www.rpc.org/morals/gambling.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-g001.html

So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

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I simply don't understand some of what is said here. I have read all of the New Testament completely and some of the Old Testament. I have never seen anything that would codemn gambling that doesn't condemn capitalism itself. Everyone seems to say that investing is good. Insurance is good (wagering in such a way that the main goal is not to increase wealth but to protect it). Noone says anything about the fact that one invests in Wal-Mart and that, in turn, clears out small businesses and only serves to bring financial ruin to the families and employees. Noone says anything about the cutthroat competition that is embraced by capitalism. Winners win and losers lose. Nine out of ten small businesses fail...so is starting a business gambling? Banks make most of their money from fees. Late fees, overdraft fees, all sorts of fees. I used to work for a large NYSE bank. We made 80% of our revenues from fees. Do you know who paid the vast majority of these fees? They were people who could not afford to pay them. They were people without the resources or the skill to manage their own finances. Trust me, I felt terrible from time to time. I remember a family that couldn't put food on the table because they made 17 charges on their debit card for about a total of $70. Overdraft fees totaled over $500. I called someone to plead for them...just to help them out. The flat answer was that I could refund them $90. They had no additional money for the next 2 weeks and I mean none. Is this compassion? No. Is this capitalism? Yes. You see, I do not leave out the possibility that capitalism is bad. It could be but, thusfar, I have not seen a better economic system to use. Other options are socialism (which doesn't provide the opportunity or incentive for groundbreaking initiatives, communism, a slave-based system, and several other failed systems. No matter what we do, some people will "win" while others will "lose." I have followed hurricanes for a long time and even done some chases. The most striking thing about hurricanes is that one man's joy is another man's ruin. A 20-mile last-minute shift in the "cone of uncertainty" has people in Houston and Galveston shouting for joy while the people of Cameron Parish, LA and Sabine Pass, TX wondering what kind of life could have been.

They also seem to state that a fundamental reason that gambling is wrong is the idea that attempting to quickly attain wealth is wrong. I have never seen that poker is a quick attempt to obtain wealth. Successful bankroll management is key in order to survive as a poker player. If you continually play above your bankroll, you will go broke eventually. Of course, this is the reason that poker tournaments are so popular. Proper judgment has to be used when "taking shots," including playing lottery-style tournaments. I don't see anything that is get-rich-quick about playing poker.

In addition, everyone likes to mention that wealth should be allocated according to ones work, not according to chance. Their is chance in all areas of life, however. The idea is to use skill, not blind luck, to make it. Even the Bible itself acknowledges this:

“I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift, and the battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise, nor wealth to the discerning, nor favor to men of ability; for time and chance overtake them all” (Ecclesiastes 9:11, NIV).

The smartest man in the world is not guaranteed wealth. He might instead live in abject poverty his entire life. The strongest man is not guaranteed to make it to the NFL, the boxing ring, or the Olympics. The hardest worker in the world may die broke while the laziest man lives a life of leisure and luxury. It is not a pretty picture. It is what makes earth what it is...simply put, not perfect. Not heaven.

I can't provide a black and white answer. The truth is not pretty. What I can tell you is that no matter what you decide to do, always try to remember those less fortunate. Remember that it could have been...it could still be...you. If you make millions playing this game, always remember. Your picture on ESPN, your huge bank account, your bracelets...all of those will not tell us what kind of person you are. It will be that moment when noone else is looking. Someone will ask you a favor. Something will press on your heart. To answer that call, it will cost you. Maybe it will be time, maybe money, maybe your emotional health, maybe your life itself...but it will cost you. I think this is the true test of a person...not whether he played poker. I haven't passed that test yet...but for the grace of God.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

All gambling includes a financial risk, but all financial risks are not considered "gambling" (in the sense that we are talking about in this thread).

Poker is zero-sum gambling game. You only win at someone else's expense. That's why many Christian denominations consider it to be wrong. Investing in stocks, opening a business, etc, are all financial risks, but it's not zero-sum. Wealth is being created, not merely transferred.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Radix malorum est cupiditas!!!!

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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All gambling includes a financial risk, but all financial risks are not considered "gambling" (in the sense that we are talking about in this thread).

Poker is zero-sum gambling game. You only win at someone else's expense. That's why many Christian denominations consider it to be wrong. Investing in stocks, opening a business, etc, are all financial risks, but it's not zero-sum. Wealth is being created, not merely transferred.

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I can understand the basic gist of your post. However, many times "wealth creation" is really a transfer of wealth. In capitalism, people often do things at the expense of others. In fact, many businesses make most of their money at the expense of others. What if your job is to sell things to people that can't afford what you are selling? Is this bad? Does it have a moral cost? Poker provides nothing tangible, but neither does a concert. Entertainment is intangible and that is what poker is to most people. For some people, it's an addiction. I think you have to think about what is truly right when you get into the grey areas of life (i.e., selling someone something that will put them into financial slavery/ruin or playing poker with people who can't afford to lose the money and have no control). I believe poker is an "interesting" game that is not just comprised of the "gambling" component. In other words, I think it is interesting because it is a game of strategies, skill, and luck. Contrast this to lottery, slot machines, or craps. For most people, a poker game is an enjoyable experience apart from the money. I enjoyed the game when I originally played it for no money at all. Yes, it's a gambling game, but I think the entertainment factor provided by poker is high. I enjoy winning because I am competitive. The money is nice only because it allows me to play at a higher competitive level.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Poker provides nothing tangible, but neither does a concert. Entertainment is intangible and that is what poker is to most people. For some people, it's an addiction.

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I'm not disagreeing with you. I think it's considered entertainment also. However... the majority of Christian denominations will disagree with us. And, they have a point: when you pay to see a movie/concert, it's possible for everyone to win -- you, and everyone else, have a great time, like the movie/concert, and the movie/concert gets paid for a job well done. The better the performers/movie, the more money they can make, and the more enjoyment/entertainment they provide to the public paying to see the movie/concert. Poker, and other zero-sum gambling games, are not like that. The people that just play for entertainment, and have a good time whether they win or lose, are in a win-win situation. But, I'd guess that most people (that play a lot) play to win. If they don't win, it's not nearly as fun for them. The money that is made, then, is at someone else's expense -- most of the time.

Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

These may not be Christian values, but...
 

From an economic standpoint, I find professional poker playing to be unethical.

You are taking money from people without providing a product or service in return.

ok, ok...I know that yes, the losing players are stupid and it's their fault for losing their money, and it's legal, and so on and so forth. But regardless, your presence at the table hurts their EV, and thus what happens is you spend time taking money from them (which they could go on to spend somewhere else), while you could be providing a service in exchange for a similar amount of money.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

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Well, it's certainly not in line with certain denominations' doctrines. I think the productivity argument could be the most valid argument of all, however. I think that productivity is extremely dependant upon who is using the money. If one uses the money for productive puposes, then an argument could be made that that particular person is making "idle money" productive again. That might include charity, building a business, etc. I think that using money and resources wisely is important. If all you dream about is expensive cars, clothes, and not working...well, that may be a problem. Some people on this site have the desire to be productive...some do not...I've heard people talk about everything from buying a chain of Subways to sitting on their ass. I don't think anyone is "made" to be happy sitting on their ass for very long. For some of us, it is a means to another dream, however.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

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Well, it's certainly not in line with certain denominations' doctrines.

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All of them that I know of. I'm sure some more liberal denominations think it's OK.

This reminds me of when my Christian friend made the argument that masturbation wasn't a sin if he was thinking about his future wife when he did it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Again, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't deceive myself into thinking what I'm doing is perfectly in line with Christian doctrine, either.

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Well, it's certainly not in line with certain denominations' doctrines.

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All of them that I know of. I'm sure some more liberal denominations think it's OK.

This reminds me of when my Christian friend made the argument that masturbation wasn't a sin if he was thinking about his future wife when he did it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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LOL...terrible. Yeh, I think a lot of demonitations split hairs over "rules." Its just not a good idea to attack certain sins and leave other ones alone. Sexual sins, drug abuse, alcoholism, crime, and abortion are attacked fairly liberally by the Southern Baptist Convention (who also attacks gambling to a somewhat lesser degree). Many things are conveniently left out more than not. These things include gluttony, greed, "not loving thy neighbor," etc. People have to be careful...even Pat Robertson concedes that there is not a biblical basis for saying that gambling is a sin. He stated in one of his books that he would be very uncomfortable with saying that gamblers are wrong. Could I be justifying to myself that it is right? Sure, it's possible. I'll come back on 2+2 and post on this board (in a non-attacking way) if I ever reach the conclusion that it is wrong.

In a way, however, I feel like poker players are fairly honest (disregarding the cheaters). Sure, I meet some assholes, slowrollers, and general scum that I meet in every other facet of life. In poker, however, I make no bones about being there to win your money.

This could easily be contrasted with the salesman who urges you to buy it because its the right thing for you. I'm not attacking salespeople, I'm just saying that the world is out to make a buck and that's the society that we live in...right or wrong.

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

Pat Robertson has stated that he opposes gambling. Here's one article w/ a quote I found:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13774.htm

... Funny, though... he repented and sold his race horse:

http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/HorseSale.asp

Re: Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint
 

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Pat Robertson has stated that he opposes gambling. Here's one article w/ a quote I found:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13774.htm

... Funny, though... he repented and sold his race horse:

http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/HorseSale.asp

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Yeh, he caught a lot of flack for that horse. I was just waiting for him to say something about televised poker just to see if Doyle or Negreanu would bring up the racehorse when interviewed. Back to point, Pat Robertson opposes gambling but someone asked him if gambling was a sin and he said he didn't have the biblical basis to state outright that it was a sin.