Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I think your read on this hand is going to be the most critical point. If you put him on a pure steal attempt, then by all means you're justified in defending the blind. I think that without that piece of information it makes it difficult to comment on the hand, and without having seen or heard how he had been playing and the general texture of the game, well, you get my point.....

Now, assuming he is stealing, which, you have to believe he is to defend with A2 off, why not crank up the pressure and try to outplay him by three betting preflop or leading at the flop, and last but not least, leading at the turn???

I think that a check on the turn is likely to induce a check behind you...making for a difficult decision on the river.

These hands can be extremely difficult from my experience, and, playing them against an agressive opponent from out of posistion can be ever more so.

I'd be very curious to see the outcome of the hand.

It seems to me that your read on him is the most important point to deal with here.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think your read on this hand is going to be the most critical point. If you put him on a pure steal attempt, then by all means you're justified in defending the blind. I think that without that piece of information it makes it difficult to comment on the hand, and without having seen or heard how he had been playing and the general texture of the game, well, you get my point.....

Now, assuming he is stealing, which, you have to believe he is to defend with A2 off, why not crank up the pressure and try to outplay him by three betting preflop or leading at the flop, and last but not least, leading at the turn???

I think that a check on the turn is likely to induce a check behind you...making for a difficult decision on the river.

These hands can be extremely difficult from my experience, and, playing them against an agressive opponent from out of posistion can be ever more so.

I'd be very curious to see the outcome of the hand.

It seems to me that your read on him is the most important point to deal with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need a "read" on him for this particular hand. He is a good player who can easily have T high here. Also, there are more ways to outplay him than 3 betting preflop. I elucidated my reasons for not 3 betting preflop to mike l., so I won't explain them again - but to paraphrase, it's essentially because I think calling preflop gives me a bigger opportunity to outplay him postflop depending on the texture of the board.
-James

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

i saw this post when it was at zero replies and thought it was such an obvious check-calldown that it would get few responses. however some responders give leading the turn as the better line - which goes to show how differently 200-400 actually is from the mid-limit online games most of us base our answers from (including the answer 'fold preflop').

nevertheless, no one has addressed why i wanted to check-call in the first place, which is, what happens if jdags finds a raise on the turn. this is the one spot i hate to end up in. not an easy fold there, given your reads.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

The problem with calling down is that he will hardly ever be firing again on the river with a worse hand (I don't know he plays, but this seems standard from any decent player) unless some scare card hits like the As.

So you can check call the turn and then check fold the river expecting him to check behind Q high or whatever.

To those who lead the turn, what do you do when raised?

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I think either a turn lead or c/c make more sense than c/r. imo anyway. If he raises your lead, I call and probably call the river...but if he raises the turn and u call, I think the river gets checked a decent amount of the time (this is going off what I have seen online though).

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I check raise check raise then lead out against a tricky player like DAGS

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

My experience is from online, but I play a lot live, so it's also from there, though not against him. I think you are thinking about this hand all wrong.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
My experience is from online, but I play a lot live, so it's also from there, though not against him. I think you are thinking about this hand all wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I posted this hand because I agree that I didn't ultimately take the best line on the turn - but thought that it was at least worth discussing.
-James

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

James now that you think you should bet the turn, what is your plan if raised?

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I would usually fold like any decent player. Then I'd kick myself for calling the flop and then leading the turn into a world class player, because my ego got in the way.

Then I'd probably be on a little bit of tilt and then second guessing myself if I was outplayed our not, while glacing over at him and smiling while he smiles back, knowing full well but never admitting that he owns me.

Then I'd be looking to 3-bet him with AJo later on in the session.

That's how I'd play it and feel if that happened to me.

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]

barron vangor tooth does, even preflop...

[/ QUOTE ]


Can't spell AND misrepresents - what a combo!

But that discussion should go where it belongs.

Barron Vangor Toth <--- 1 "O" / word
BarronVangorToth.com <--- 1 "O" / word

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesnt make any sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Build a bigger pot to make calling down more correct is what I guess he's saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement is a huge logical fallacy....

do you pump your gutshots on the flop so that you can call on the turn??????

[/ QUOTE ]

You always need to create pot odds for your longshot draws. Otherwise they arent profitable.

You mean to say that all the Heads up/SH aggro's are wrong to do this? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me like if you're going to be taking ace high to showdown with any frequency against him, then you might as well three-bet it, at least occasionally. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesnt make any sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Build a bigger pot to make calling down more correct is what I guess he's saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement is a huge logical fallacy....

do you pump your gutshots on the flop so that you can call on the turn??????

[/ QUOTE ]

You always need to create pot odds for your longshot draws. Otherwise they arent profitable.

You mean to say that all the Heads up/SH aggro's are wrong to do this? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, HU aggros who do this do so correctly often times because so called "good players" are folding with the right odds to call(or when they are ahead because of all the pf action).
-James

Re: 200/400 hand 1
 

I think the problem with a check raise is he's usually gonna give up here when he has nothing which is what he has most of the time, and check behind. The check call flop and donk bet turn line you mentioned is a good line I think and also I like check raising the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
MAYBE a king(he has definitely folded top pair during this session to a player with an image similar to mine

[/ QUOTE ]
It was a totally different situation where he folded to the other guy. The other guy had raised preflop and John 3-bet him in position and the action ended up with the guy check riasing the turn. Everytime that guy raised postflop I saw him show an overpair and I think his image was much more tight/stragihtforward than yours. John would never fold a K here in a blind steal situation against you. I doubt hed fold a pair with a flush draw either and probably calls the river once hes gotten there.