Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Chip runners should be tipped, not fleeced. I know it wasn't intentional, but its pretty likely that this guy got in trouble for being short. His job is hard and mistakes are inevitable. I'm not saying that you are a bad person, but I really think that you are underestimating the repercussions this might have for this guy's life.
And no, I don't pity the commerce. They do very well for themselves, and there are other people in society who deserve our sympathy more than casino owners.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just find it hypocritical when anyone who plays poker for a living pretends to be some sort of noble, upstanding citizen who would never engage in any shading dealings. Clearly, you'd have to be lying to yourself to say this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it hypocritical? You don't see a difference in the money you earn on a table than the money you get because of a screw up?

I don't engage in any shady dealings. I'd have given the chip back.

b

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Ok, I can agree to disagree. Becoming more libertarian has improved my approach to poker. We're probably more on the same page than we think, if that even makes any sense.

I really do think that my point that you can show "compassion," "morals," or whatever in a predatory, take no prisoners environment holds water though.

I don't intend to tell you, the OP, or anyone else what to do with their lives. Guess that's the Libertarian in me. At the same time, my opinion on this matter was once more in line with you and the OP. Just thought I'd add my opinion, and sorry if I came across as a preachy ass.

Dan

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Oh you can take a "whatever you want to call it approach" in the poker environment.

I think we actually agree 100%, we just each take a different view on what we personally would do.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if you think that the people are conciously choosing to play poker as if they aren't totally addicted to gambling, you are again completely fooling yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]

So everyone in every cardroom, including yourself if you were in there since your statement is all inclusive, are 'totally' addicted to gambling since you're sitting at a cardtable?

ok.

You may want to pick up a GA pamphlet.

b

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
And frankly, what does it matter to your life if the OP got an extra $100 from a chip runner. I hardly think it affects you (and don't anyone dare try to give me some long drawn out BS scenario where the 'now homeless chip runner breaks into your house and kills your family when they try to fight back after he robs the place' type of thing).




I don't go into your church and scream bloody murder that the notion of god is just an elaborate hoax designed to control people and their rather meaningless lives. Don't come into my card room and tell me to give the cashier his money back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last comment. I agree with you that it's not a matter of "Boo hoo, poor chip runner." I think there's a right and a wrong way to do things, and it's not necessarily dictated by any church, society, or whatever. Sometimes it's an individual choice, and irrespective of societal norms and laws, the most important thing is if *you* feel comfortable with you decision. As before, I respect how you aired your opinion on this matter. I just ask you to look at differentiating the two issues (playing poker vs. other things). If you feel that you don't have to giveanybody an inch in either one, that's your opinion, and I can live with that.

Peace,
Dan

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]


I don't go into your church and scream bloody murder that the notion of god is just an elaborate hoax designed to control people and their rather meaningless lives.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I regularly attended a church, it honestly wouldn't bother me if you did, if you were civil and we could have a discourse. Also, I didn't scream bloody murder. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Dammit, I should have read your whole response so I'd only have had to do one reply. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I didn't say everyone.

But, yes, there are quite a few people you are making money off of who are very much addicted to gambling. I don't have an issue with that. If you do, then you likely choose to ignore it, believe it doesn't exist or think I'm just pulling stuff out of my ass.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if you think that the people are conciously choosing to play poker as if they aren't totally addicted to gambling, you are again completely fooling yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed the exclusions.

[ QUOTE ]
But, yes, there are quite a few people you are making money off of who are very much addicted to gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. I literally see it every day. So what?

This is a much different issue than what we are talking about. If you can't see the difference, then you're the one with the problem.

[ QUOTE ]
I just find it hypocritical when anyone who plays poker for a living pretends to be some sort of noble, upstanding citizen who would never engage in any shading dealings. Clearly, you'd have to be lying to yourself to say this

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still waiting on how one can't be noble and honorable while still being a poker player.

b

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Could I have a description of the transaction? From begining to end, I think there's another answer here.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I can describe to you how it works for a cocktail server, which my gf explained to me once. It's similar to the chip runner because they probably both have a "bank".

The cocktail server makes sales throughout the night and at the end of the night the computer will total up how much in cash sales she made (tips don't count towards it, and that's why you get to keep them at the end of the night) . This is the amount that she must have when she cashes out; otherwise she gets a write up. Two write ups and you are fired. So obviously if her bank is short by 5 bucks, she will take 5 bucks out of her tips to make it right, or risk being fired and losing her means of income.

So in the chip runners case, they probably get a bank of lets say $5000. If they give $500 in chips, they get $500 in cash plus a tip, and then they can exchange the $500 in cash back into $500 in chips to continue for the night. At the end of the night, their chips and cash must total up to $5000. If this guy was short by $100, he will have to take it out of his tips/pocket to make it right or risk being fired... So he probably ended up losing ALL of his tips for that night, and then some.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
A chip runner at a Los Angeles area casino inadvertantly gave me an extra $100 last night when coloring up my chips. I didn't say anything -- I just kept the money.

Does anyone know what sort of accounting procedures they have for chip runners? Will this guy end up $100 short at the end of his shift, or something?

I seem to remember a thread on this forum where a guy said he had to pay back a casino for some mistake they made giving change or some such thing.

And of course feel free to comment on my principles. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Sparks

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to go, dickface. I hope the extra $100 really helped you out in that big $1/2 limit game you play.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can argue my morals to death, but my beliefs are mine. I just find it hypocritical when anyone who plays poker for a living pretends to be some sort of noble, upstanding citizen who would never engage in any shading dealings. Clearly, you'd have to be lying to yourself to say this.


[/ QUOTE ]


Kind of silly really. If you gamble, then you are probably going to steal??

Gambling = willing participants

Stealing - 1 thief and 1 unwilling particiapant


They're not even close.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

They once gave me an extra $20 at the cage, and when I realized it I returned it the next day. I said I didn't want the $$ to come out of someone's check, and they told me "it definitely would have, thank you." So you got an extra $100 for 12 hours of work someone else did.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
I'm just very libertarian

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep using this term as if it means a lack of morals. My understanding of Libertarians is that they don't want the government interfering in behaviors that are harmless to others, whether or not those behaviors conflict with the government's view of morality. I believe you would be hard pressed to find a Libertarian who includes theft as an area in which the government should not be involved.

Martin

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you and the OP realize that it's possible to have both the libertarian outlook (that I feel is necessary) to be successful at poker and at the same time, have a conscience.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW -- just to express a point of view, not to moralize or preach to anyone -- I think I would have an ethical problem with knowingly playing routinely against people who are problem gamblers and playing with the rent money. Of course the fact that this does NOT appear to be the typical case in most public cardrooms is what keeps me relatively untroubled by it. It is a reason why I feel more comfortable, say, in the Borgata than in the Taj (even though I'm sure most people at the Taj are very much gambling under control); it just feels like people there can afford to give you their money at the table.

The "table drunk" is a little dubious case, but even then if there's not evidence the person is a problem drinker/gambler I don't have a huge problem with it. If I had such evidence, I'd expect (possibly unrealistically?) the casino to lead the campaign for responsible drinking/gambling, since ruining lives does them little long-term good. If they didn't lead, I'd request a table change at least, possibly stop playing there. But maybe I'm naive.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

When keeping the $100, try to remember the story posted here last year.
I forget the name but some guy cashed out after a nice win at NL. Yada, yada the next time he was at the Commerce buying chips, they had a picture of him on the wall. The attendant told him, that their count was off at the end of the night a few weeks back, so they reviewed videos and saw he was shorted $50, which they gave him on the spot (after signing and providing ID)

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope you and the OP realize that it's possible to have both the libertarian outlook (that I feel is necessary) to be successful at poker and at the same time, have a conscience.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW -- just to express a point of view, not to moralize or preach to anyone -- I think I would have an ethical problem with knowingly playing routinely against people who are problem gamblers and playing with the rent money. Of course the fact that this does NOT appear to be the typical case in most public cardrooms is what keeps me relatively untroubled by it. It is a reason why I feel more comfortable, say, in the Borgata than in the Taj (even though I'm sure most people at the Taj are very much gambling under control); it just feels like people there can afford to give you their money at the table.

The "table drunk" is a little dubious case, but even then if there's not evidence the person is a problem drinker/gambler I don't have a huge problem with it. If I had such evidence, I'd expect (possibly unrealistically?) the casino to lead the campaign for responsible drinking/gambling, since ruining lives does them little long-term good. If they didn't lead, I'd request a table change at least, possibly stop playing there. But maybe I'm naive.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post comes across a little naive. You'd have to stop playing in any room you went to. I think it's safe to say, all rooms have people with gambling problems. Just not all the people playing have gambling problems. This seems like another case of out of site, out of mind.

Casinos leading a campaign? Yes, that's why they put the GA pamphlets by the cage rather than by the ATM. (think about that for a moment)

That's like a bar leading a campaign against problem drinking.

b

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Read "Ace on the River" and then think about what you did. I won't judge your morals because I do not know you, but I will say that, at best, your actions exhibited a lack of class and sadly is the attitude of many people today. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I'm not sure whether or not it was immoral for Sparks to keep the money. It wasn't particularly classy and I don't think he should have done it, but I can't speak from the moral high ground and condemn him (as a few posters in this thread have done). I do, however, feel that there is one huge scumbag in this scenario that needs to be chastised: the casino. We pretty much all agree that the casino is going to charge the employee who overpayed Sparks. However, if this same employee had shorted Sparks I find it highly unlikely that the casino would have tracked him down to pay him the extra money, and I know for a fact the casino wouldn't have given the extra money to the employee. So the casino is benefits every time an employee makes the honest mistake of underpaying, but remains even when an employee makes the honest mistake of overpaying. It's also worth noting that the reason the employee (the Mom working 2 jobs that one poster described) can't afford to pay back the casino is because the casino is severely underpaying her in the first place when they can afford to pay her much better. Sparks may have been wrong in this instance, but the casino is the one that is clearly immoral.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
sparks, i hope you learned your lesson

[/ QUOTE ]

This has all worked out fine for me, just as I expected. I see no lesson to be learned. What do you mean? Oh let me guess...stealing is bad. Thanks, heard it already, not biting. Several children have already made that argument.

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Casinos are very much like porn-peddlers or tobacco/liquor companies. They make profits off of exploiting/encouraging the worst of human nature.

One could argue poker players fall under that umbrella... :-)

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I was a bank teller for over a year.

For being $100 short, that chip runner/cashier/whomever was probably placed on a final warning, if not fired outright.

We tellers were allowed more of a margin before getting outright fired, but we dealt with a lot of non-trash transactions too. Keying in the wrong amount on deposited checks, etc were all counted against us. Once it got to a certain point, there were warnings and firings. If $100 cash turned up missing though, it'd probably be a final warning.

Fate of the Chip Runner
 

This thread is a disgrace. I tried yet again, in vain, to find intelligence on 2+2. It's here somewhere, I know, but I just can't tap it in any of my threads.

So, I was back at the casino and learned several things from by buddies who work there.

1. Benoit's previous post has it just about right on how the money is tracked in a casino.
2. The chip runner was in fact short $100 that night and brought it to the floorman's attention.
3. The chip runner "made the money up" in a fascinating way, breaking even for the night! Wow!

This pathetic thread and its respondents do not deserve to know the details. My apologies for all who had to suffer through this pile-of-crap-thread.

I'm out.

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Several children have already made that argument.


[/ QUOTE ]

Insulting those who choose comment on a topic you invited them to comment on ("And of course feel free to comment on my principles." followed by [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) is really unbecoming.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Ok, I understand if a chip runner or waitress screws up they keep track of their sales so they know exactly how much in sales they owe. However, how about a dealer at a table game? How exactly would the casino keep track of every bet each dealer gives out? Many times dealers make errors in payouts especially in games such as 3 card poker where there math is necessary to figure the payouts. I don't see how they can track the problem if a dealer accidently gave out $500 on a payout because the pit bosses cannot be on top of every bet every hand. So it seems unlikely the casino can track every single payout that should be payed compared to what is actually payed out.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, how about a dealer at a table game? How exactly would the casino keep track of every bet each dealer gives out? Many times dealers make errors in payouts especially in games such as 3 card poker where there math is necessary to figure the payouts. I don't see how they can track the problem if a dealer accidently gave out $500 on a payout because the pit bosses cannot be on top of every bet every hand. So it seems unlikely the casino can track every single payout that should be payed compared to what is actually payed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Eye-in-the-sky"

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sparks, I don't blame you ... I would have walked out with it to... and I really think alot of these guys trying to jump on your case about it , would have as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a horrendously dumb assumption.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
the chip runner will most definetly pay the $100 out of his pocket. its probably a college kid trying to make enough money to eat something other than top ramen. but if you're lucky, maybe it was a woman with 3 kids working her second job at night. hopefully, her husband drinks his paycheck every night and beats her regularly and the only way her kids eat between their beatings is if she brings home 2 paychecks. but that's only wishful thinking. now, if i were to have met you that night, and you would have told me that, i would have collapsed your eye socket. maybe both.

as a sidebar, you are a piece of sh.it. you should strongly consider suicide.

-jihad

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree it's stealing and would give it back, I don't understand the defense of the chip runner. The argument "he might get fired if you don't give it back" is so flawed. The dismissable offense isn't that the customer didn't give back the extra $100, it's that CAN'T COUNT AND DIDN'T DOUBLE CHECK THE ONE AND ONLY THING HIS JOB REQUIRES HIM TO DO.

Re: Fate of the Chip Runner
 

From the original post:

[ QUOTE ]
And of course feel free to comment on my principles. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You asked for it.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried yet again, in vain, to find intelligence on 2+2. It's here somewhere, I know, but I just can't tap it in any of my threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Water seeks its own level.

b

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Correct, I saw on a TV show once them talking to a casion and they watch dealers closely and review tapes, etc. (there were talking about some collusion between dealers and players) and he stated that dealers sometimes just make honest errors and payout too much or by mistake sometimes and if that occurs they warn the dealer about it and if a dealer is routinely sloppy about it they are let go.

So as far as table games go (where money flows in and out and thus a "bank" isn't possible) it sounds like casinos accept the occasional screw up from a dealer but if a dealer does it a few times too often they get axed.

Re: Fate of the Chip Runner
 

Does 'intelligence' mean 'someone justifying your theft?'

Why did you need us to do that? Clearly you did it yourself, right? What about that little 4 point argument you posted? Sounds like you're pretty darn sure of yourself.. aren't you?

Oh yeah and to the person who keeps claiming they are Libertarian and that's a justification - that's nonsense. Libertarians are not for taking money that's not yours - they respect property rights above all else.

Re: Fate of the Chip Runner
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tried yet again, in vain, to find intelligence on 2+2...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're ignorance is amusing. Here is a song for you, and your city...

"...
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
bull-sh.it three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks here in this, hopeless fuc.king, hole we call LA.
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fuc.king time.
Any fuc.king day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.
...
Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshi.ts.
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will
I sure could use a vacation from this
stupid shi.t, silly shi.t, stupid shi.t...
One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim
...
Cuz I'm praying for rain
and I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna see it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

..."-Tool

Love,
-Jihad

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Would you give the chips back to someone who misread their hand. I wouldn't, but I'd give it back to the chiprunner

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

it's very likely you won't get away with it. not too long ago, a supervisor confronted me with the news that I had been overpaid $500 more than a week earlier. they have cameras recording all the transactions, and then they track the runner to see who he gives the chips to. it takes a lot of time to go through all the tapes. if they recognize you, you will be asked to return the money. if you don't, you will be barred from the casino.

Re: Fate of the Chip Runner
 

Well hold on now, I wasn't defending you, just telling you how it worked.

[ QUOTE ]

3. The chip runner "made the money up" in a fascinating way, breaking even for the night! Wow!


[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't care then so be it, but I'm just making sure we're on the same page here. You understand this means the chip runner worked that day without making ANY money if you mean "breaking even" like I think you mean.

I know I'd be pissed off and heads would roll at work if they didn't pay me for a day.

Did you even tip her that night? Because if you tipped her 1 buck then took that extra $100, in actuality, it's like you tipped her -$99 because she gave wrong change.

Re: Fate of the Chip Runner
 

I doubt they catch errors from dealers

I count card in BJ and have been overpaid many times.I've had a dealer tell me that I was an idiot for saying I was playing 2 hands ( which I was) and told me I was only playing one
What really pissed me off was her shitty attitude when I called the floor over
I get so much bullshit advice from dealers and they make enough mistakes that I have to be on top of that I sure as hell don't correct the errors that favor me.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just very libertarian and don't believe that anyone really has a place to be criticizing anyone else's morals. That's why things like this get to me. He didn't break the law, so everyone should get off his case.

[/ QUOTE ]

No comment on the original $100 over-changing issue, but I find the poker and morality debate intriguing.

Metetron, you've had some interesting stuff to say in this thread, but I couldn't get past the comment above. Wouldn't you agree that you've engaged in some circular reasoning here? On the one hand you put forward a position on morality that basically denies it any validity as an area for debate (i.e., no-one can say anything reasonable about anyone else's moral standards). This is a fairly nihilistic position to take, but OK.

Then two sentences later, you use the word "should". If you really believe in your own position, you flat out aren't allowed to use evaluative words like "should" at the risk of being absurd.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Forgive me, 2+2, for I have sinned.

I ordered an Italian sandwich from the grocery-store deli yesterday. One (underpaid, bored) employee made the sandwich, and another (underpaid, bored) employee went to ring me up after the first walked away. She said "Is this Boar's Head brand meat or store-brand?"

I said "What? I have no id- ... It's store brand." She pushed the button marked "cheaper sandwich", and I paid less. I still don't know what category my sandwich was in.

Just thought I'd share.
-Sam

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as a sidebar, you are a piece of sh.it. you should strongly consider suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm interested in is if anyone knows of a specific accounting procedure the chip runners have. There was a new game starting, the runner brought over like 10 racks of checks to sell to every one.

Legally, I doubt the chip runner would have to pay back an underage. I think he'd have a legitimate complaint against the casino if they made him pay. Accidental errors are just a cost of doing business in a casino, IMO.

And don't feel TOO bad for the house. They only drop (including asian games) about $250,000... a day.

Sparks

[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares how you feel?You are a thief and you've admitted it in a public forum.I hope someone that knows you from Commerce turns you in and they make you disappear.