Re: I learned something
 

Most likely a bluff, a 5 or a 6.

EDIT: By 'bluff' I mean a continuation of a semi bluff, not something completely random, most likely.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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I play AK or AJ the same way, FWIW.

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what about AQ? it seems by your omission you bet, but then what other legit hands do you checkraise?

(I say legit not in terms of winning when called or getting him to fold, but in terms of "beating an ace kicker")

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Hey DMB,

I'm betting a full house or a pocket pair better than 9's here. He won't bluff a whole lot with busted draws, but there's no way he's folding an Ace here. He'll bet both sometimes of course, but I think I'm losing a bet versus an Ace that checks through more often than I'm going to gain a bet by checking here.

So yeah, basically I'm not check-raising any legitimate hands here besides Ace high, which really is actually a pretty good hand here against his range. I check-raise the river very often with strong holdings after betting the turn and getting called HU though, so I'm able to cover for the times I bluff c/r or value-bluff c/r, AK and AJ in this hand being a good example.

GoT

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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I don't know about at those limits, but down at 2/4 and 3/6 there are alot of guys who can play a Q or a 9 this way. With a specific read this makes more sense to me, but against unknowns at those levels I think it's just spewing.

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You're right in that I wouldn't advise this play against a complete unknown at those limits or a guy who consistenly weird-plays. Against a semi-decent or somewhat thinking or capable opponent I think this is the play, even at 2/4 thru 5/10 full.

GoT

Re: I learned something
 

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After I finished playing last night I was watching GoT and then played for him while he went to look for something. After he came back I kept playing while he watched and this hand came up. If it hadn't been for the combination of talking with him about similar plays and this thread I would NEVER have thought of this play. As soon as the river card hit I thought it looked like a good place to try to steal the pot, then he said, "see, this is a spot where I'd try a river check raise." I haven't had a moment like that, where something completely new clicked, in long time...it was pretty exciting.

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Tell us about the Button Evan, what were his stats like? Is he the type of player that can fold 56s here? A5o? 5x? Ax? I like this play a lot, knowing more about the opponent helps us get into the groove.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I learned something
 

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Is he the type of player that can fold 56s here? A5o? 5x? Ax?

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No one is folding any of those hands, other than 5x, ever.

Button is 37/19.5/1.56 over 1662 hands.

I think this is dangerous.....
 

.....not becuase it is a bad move, but because it should only be applied vs. the right opponent at the right time. Most of the people who read this forum play 2/4 or 3/6. This happened in a 30/60 game, where I am sure the player dynamic and skill level is much different. I am not trying to be critical of Evan or GoT, I just would hate to see a lot of 2/4 players getting carried away with this. At 30/60 this is an advanced, expert play. At 2/4 or 3/6 it is FPS.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

I don't like it. Here are my thoughts.

Button cold calls a raise preflop. Against the kinda guy who folds to check raises, I'll put his range at 22-TT, JTs, and other suited faces.

He calls the flop. Could be in order of likelyhood 88-22, JT, AcXc, a 9, a Q.

He calls the turn. I really doubt he has a 9 and I think it moderately unlikely that he has a Q. I still think a small pp is the overwhelming favorite. Could be in order of likelyhood 88-22, JT, AcXc, unlikely (a Q, a 9).

On the river, the board pairs counterfeiting a small pp. It doesn't complete the obvious straight or flush draws. So you check to induce a bluff. I'm sorta with you there but I don't understand the point of the cr. It's either for value or to fold a better (tied?) hand.

I can't see any worse hand calling so I doubt it's for value. (Occasionally online you'll see people look up a river cr with a busted draw just for info but ignoring that, it looks like a crappy value cr)

A 9 will never fold. He doesn't have a 9 though. A busted straight or flush can't call the cr. The cr has no value against these hands though. A call would be just as good.

I don't think ace high folds here. It also seems unlikely that he has Ace high here. AT, AJ maybe but unlikely.

I could see him folding KJ, KT to the cr. But I don't think these hands comprise enough of his hand range to make the river cr better than just calling.

The same analysis holds true for you having AK, or AJ. Thanks for the post,

Krishan

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

Krishan,

I like your analysis. I am very curious to see how GoT responds to it. GoT?

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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I like your analysis.

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Thanks!

<font color="white"> really just a bump </font>

Krishan

Re: I learned something
 

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30/60 Hold'em (3 handed)

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This is a vital detail to this post IMO.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

Hey Krishan,

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Button cold calls a raise preflop. Against the kinda guy who folds to check raises, I'll put his range at 22-TT, JTs, and other suited faces.

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This is a little too narrow. Hands like A2s-ATs, AJ-A7o, KJs-K8s, KJo-K8o, medium suited connectors and one gappers, etc. are all possible here.

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He calls the flop. Could be in order of likelyhood 88-22, JT, AcXc, a 9, a Q.

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Again, too narrow. 88-22, KJ, KT, JT, A-high, pair of 9's, T8s, J8s, weak flush draw, etc. Lots and lots of hands here.

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He calls the turn. I really doubt he has a 9 and I think it moderately unlikely that he has a Q. I still think a small pp is the overwhelming favorite. Could be in order of likelyhood 88-22, JT, AcXc, unlikely (a Q, a 9).

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As you said, trip 9's are very, very unlikely here. A weak suited Q is a possibility, though not nearly as likely as an under-pair, A high, straight draw, or a weak flush. I would put them in that order too.

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I don't think ace high folds here. It also seems unlikely that he has Ace high here. AT, AJ maybe but unlikely.

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Ace high folds here quite a lot in just about all games I play (this includes live small stakes games) by all but THEE loosest tier of players. I guess if you don't agree with that then you're not going to agree with this play, so there's really no point in going into any math or anything. So I'll just say that raising with A-high on double paired boards in chopping situations has a non-insignificant impact on my winrate. You have to find a good frequently and often call with it to show that you just call there with an Ace obviously, but these types of plays are solid at all levels I've ever played.

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The same analysis holds true for you having AK, or AJ.

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No, it really doesn't. It shouldn't be hard to see why.

GoT

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

I agree my hand range might be a little too narrow. In my experience players aren't that likely to coldcall with Axs. I agree about the suited connectors and one gappers though.

If you include Axs as a possible cold calling hand, your line begins to look better.

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Ace high folds here quite a lot in just about all games I play (this includes live small stakes games) by all but THEE loosest tier of players. I guess if you don't agree with that then you're not going to agree with this play, so there's really no point in going into any math or anything. So I'll just say that raising with A-high on double paired boards in chopping situations has a non-insignificant impact on my winrate.

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I'm convinced. I probably just haven't tried to push someone off Ace high on a double paired board enough yet to know it's efficacy. I'll give it a try. Great thread, thanks,

Krishan

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Quote:
The same analysis holds true for you having AK, or AJ.



No, it really doesn't. It shouldn't be hard to see why.

GoT

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I couldn't figure this one out. It looks to me like the reasons to cr AJ/AK are the same as raising KJ. To push Villian off ace high. What am I missing?

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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Ace high folds here quite a lot in just about all games I play (this includes live small stakes games) by all but THEE loosest tier of players. I guess if you don't agree with that then you're not going to agree with this play, so there's really no point in going into any math or anything. So I'll just say that raising with A-high on double paired boards in chopping situations has a non-insignificant impact on my winrate. You have to find a good frequently and often call with it to show that you just call there with an Ace obviously, but these types of plays are solid at all levels I've ever played.

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very interesting.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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I couldn't figure this one out. It looks to me like the reasons to cr AJ/AK are the same as raising KJ. To push Villian off ace high. What am I missing?

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Well, if your opponent generally has a worse ace, you want to check-call, as check-raise will be a losing play, only getting called by worse hands. Check-raising KJ gets called by worse hands, but makes better hands fold which makes it worth it.

Re: I learned something
 

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it was pretty exciting

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Evan, if this is what gives you that much of a hardon, then I think you might have a problem

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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I couldn't figure this one out. It looks to me like the reasons to cr AJ/AK are the same as raising KJ. To push Villian off ace high. What am I missing?

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Well, if your opponent generally has a worse ace, you want to check-call, as check-raise will be a losing play, only getting called by worse hands. Check-raising KJ gets called by worse hands, but makes better hands fold which makes it worth it.

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He checkraises with AK and AJ also. Which I assume is for the same reasons he checkraises with KJ.

Krishan

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

wow. I can't say I've ever had a concept hit me quite so hard, except when I first learned what raising for value was.

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but I think I'm losing a bet versus an Ace that checks through more often than I'm going to gain a bet by checking here.


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in response, I wanted to type "but if ace high can't be counted on to bet then how can you expect to checkraise here" but then I realized that he really doesn't need to bet that often and fold to it that often to make that play +EV since it steals you the pot. less +EV with AK and AJ (you're only earning half the pot when he lays down A high) but still he doesn't have to bet nearly CLOSE to everytime to make that play worth it. word.

with AQ, he DOES have to bet almost every time because you are sure to collect one bet by betting, where as he will only bet sometimes and not call your c/r often.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

Awesome thread! Thanks for posting this hand. Have to toggle to grasp everything more later...

Thanks.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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He checkraises with AK and AJ also. Which I assume is for the same reasons he checkraises with KJ.

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Hmm. Maybe to push off pocket pairs too?

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

I kind of want results on this one. Did he fold?

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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He checkraises with AK and AJ also. Which I assume is for the same reasons he checkraises with KJ.

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Hmm. Maybe to push off pocket pairs too?

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pp? Did you read the hand correctly? The board is double paired?

Krishan

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

When a weak player bets you are usually in trouble. The reason for playing like this is because there should be a chance that your oppt will fold. When u are playing against someone whop u know plays badly this is obviously the wrong way to go about it. He is there to call not to be bluffed. You should tone it down a bit and after everyone sees the hand history ud better tighten up drastically in the session u pull a stunt like that.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

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The same analysis holds true for you having AK, or AJ.

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No, it really doesn't. It shouldn't be hard to see why.

GoT

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Why doesn't it?

You still hope for other aces to fold? The only difference is that the times they call you lose nothing. So it's better.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

checkraise is bad imo...you really need to have a good read that villain will value bet ace high and fold to a checkraise. i dont think you have that.

i dont feel like analyzing it but i thought i would contribute because the opinions of this thread are very onesided. still however, its an excellent hand worth posting, just the discussion is subpar.

Re: Daily Hand Post : KJo in LMP
 

Talked about this on irc. And I never got around to posting my thoughts here. But I have to respectfully disagree w/ the river action. Im a lazy responder...I like doing things in one line sometimes so I will say my thoughts on this have already been shared by others who have already posted here.