Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

I can't do it.

The reason is that actually being on the path of mastering poker raises your awareness of how to get success in any effort, generally.

Therefore, I agree with Kellermann that the poker "metaskills" (highly leveragable skills that transfer fast to other endeavors, such as figuring odds, managing risk, and making correct reads)apply also to the job search.

With the job search the key poker metaskill is game selection.

The ideal opportunity profile would go like this:

1. Smaller firm
2. Closely held
3. Positioned in a growing industry
4. Poker-friendly (or at least poker-neutral) decision makers
5. Relatively easy access to info on the firm, or a friend inside.

I concede your points about specifics. The job hunt is a high-stakes game featuring incomplete information on specific personalities who "own" the hiring decision.

Play accordingly.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

I agree with the entrapaneur angle and also agree with A. Shoonmakers points.

I think it's good to make the best of a situation but I also believe in being realistic.

Taking the relative morality/legality issues out of the picture one could also make an argument for a successful 'call girl' being a good background for certain jobs...but because of the public perception most would probably try to find a way around it... Same with a successful drug dealer haha

I like to be provocative to stimulate discussion lol

Re: Independant Spirits
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dan,

I agree with your general points about "game selection," but must take exception to one point you made.

You used the word "team" in your reply, but poker players are TERRIBLE team members. Our game is extremely competitive, all against all. In fact, if you play as a team, it's called "collusion" and "cheating."

If a hiring manager is looking for highly individualistic, ruthlessly competitive people, poker players are worthwhile. If he wants a team player, don't even consider poker players.

Thanks for raising an important subject.

Regards,

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the good doctor here.

Poker players are very independant spirits. To make your living at a game like poker (ie- professional gambler) is really in some aspects rejecting the 'normality' that is society and life as the majority knows it.

It could be that this player has found that they can't 'grind' it out anymore and want a stable job, but more than likely they haven't given up poker completely and I'd bet it's only so long before that world interferes with the normal one (ie- 9 to 5) and their workrate suffers or they eventually give up the job.

With no intention to pun, hiring a professional poker player is a "gamble". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

Legalities aside, what about the trasferrable skills of a hit man? I'd imagine that successful poker players have many of the same qualities hahahaaa

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

Why would you want somebody working for you who is not happy with his job?

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

OK, call girl skills may transfer well to "some" types of businesses.

But, poker skills do translate well to "most" types of businesses.

I'm not sold on the call-girl argument.

I do admit the "WINNING-poker-guy-as-employee" argument has some flaws.

But he's mastered a very difficult game, and all other things being equal he's still a higher life form than the the typical garden-variety candidate.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kellermann is a player !

[/ QUOTE ]

So you got my point?

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

Totally. These metaskills you discuss- yes. Poker skills are metaskills-- they can be broadly applied. That is what I meant to say.

You said it best.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

I can't do it.
You can't do it? What do you mean you can't do it?

You've presented some truly convicing arguments about how the skills and experience of a poker professional can displace experienced accountants, lawyers, actuaries, economists, engineers, dentists, doctors, psychologists, criminologists, and even executives! The way you paint the picture, I imagine if the games ever got real tough, the food lines will not by filled by former college poker pros, but by experienced professionals from all walks of life recently displaced by the uniquely qualified college poker pro's re-entry into the workforce.

How can you not find one "real" job where x number of years in poker makes an applicant more qualified than the applicant with x number of years in the vocation or related vocation? How do you reconcile "can't do it" with "embracing reality"?

The ideal opportunity profile would go like this:

1. Smaller firm
2. Closely held
3. Positioned in a growing industry
4. Poker-friendly (or at least poker-neutral) decision makers
5. Relatively easy access to info on the firm, or a friend inside.

But can a smaller, often undercapitalized firm, competing for market share in a growing sector, afford a pure decision maker? The decision makers in most smaller firms in growing markets do a lot of work themselves! What work can a poker player contribute that cannot be substituted by a college kid at minimum wage? Will he deal cards during lunch? And when the firm grows quickly (presumably the addition of a poker pro will facilitate this), in what senior, managerial, or executive capacity will the former poker pro contribute? Fresh Air Inspector?

As to a pure decision maker or advisory capacity, would it not be better to hire a consultant or recently retired executive instead of a poker player? Many successful early retirees in marketing, management, law, finance, banking, etc. of smaller of firms take semi-retirement night school jobs at small local colleges teaching business, law, and accounting courses. These people also do consultation work for small firms at very affordabe prices. They aren't underqualified or failures. They're simply older people no longer content with the daily grind, and seeking an opportunity to satisfy emotional or psychological needs by passing on their wisdom and experience as they prepare to enter retirement life.

What you have described, is an ideal opportunity for the poker pro, not the company! And this is not surprising that poker pros are opportunistic. It is consistent with the profile of a successful poker pro, in search of the ideal opportunity.. for themselves! And consistent with your point:

5. Relatively easy access to info on the firm, or a friend inside.

I concede your points about specifics. The job hunt is a high-stakes game featuring incomplete information on specific personalities who "own" the hiring decision.

It is about one getting what is best for oneself and how to do it. But what will one contribute once one gets the job? Clean the owner's washroom? How long will one remain employed?

One can not describe a single "real" job for which poker better qualifies an individual than field or related field experience because none exists. Nor can one find any extra-poker real world situation in which poker experience better qualifes a candidate than field or related field experience, as a consultant or advisor. The poker pro has neither the experience nor knowledge specific to the situation and industry to provide quality, informed, and expert advice.

Even in the capacity of pure decision maker or risk analyst, there are plenty of others better qualified. The poker pro is familiar and experienced only with self power and self responsibility. There is no such thing as a simple decision maker in any organized environment. With decision making power (from others) comes responsibility (to others). The decision maker must have strong leadership skills to direct and accept responsibility for subordinates, and an appreciation and adherence to fiduciary responsibilities to those that empowered him.. a reality not in the realm of poker experience.

Poker is not to all vocations, as math is to all sciences. Learn to, as you say, embrace reality.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

I agree with the entrapaneur angle and also agree with A. Shoonmakers points.
There are some serious problems even from the entrepreneurial angle. In almost any entrepreneurial undertaking, the owner/manager has some some skills and experience that qualifies him for the trade of the business. Restaurants, flower shops, landscaping, and construction companies are started by those with expertise in the trade: chefs, florists, landscapers, and carpenters. Law offices, dental offices, accouting offices, are started by certified and/or experienced professionals. There are few businesses such as a corner grocery store or gas station that can be successful startups for a non-expert owner/manager, and of these, anyone with x number of years as stockboy, cashier, or business/managerial environement is no less qualified as anyone with x number of years at the card table.

The best a poker education prepares one, is ownership. Which is not exactly the same as entrepreneurial venture. But then again, any citizen of a free and capital-democratic society is qualifed to posses capital and reap the rewards of ownership: stocks, bonds, real estate, equipment or whatever else. The transition from mere ownership to growing business concern requires entreprenerial spirit and some expertise in the trade of the business. And poker, is no substitute for direct or related experience.

The simplest "business" a poker player exiting the profession can possibly engage (other than a cardroom): self employed stock market investor.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

I just started a new job, and will likely share my love of poker (albeit not online poker) with my colleagues over time, as I did with my last job.

That having been said, I would not avoid hiring a pro poker player per se, but I would certainly NOT see it as a positive. I would see it as a black mark, and would be less likely to hire such a person.

Part-time players: Mention it as a hobby?
 

On an interview I went on (job: statistician) I mentioned that I played poker online, going on to explain that it truly wasn't "gambling" in the long term and that a statistican that couldn't win at poker really wasn't worth his salt [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Didn't get the job, but am ~100% sure it wasn't due to that. This was a pretty cool, "quirky" company, though, and I figured it was a fine thing to mention.

I'm wondering, though, in general -- if you're applying for a math-oriented job, and are discussing your hobbies with your potential employer -- whether poker would be considered a net plus these days.

Re: Part-time players: Mention it as a hobby?
 

[ QUOTE ]
On an interview I went on (job: statistician) I mentioned that I played poker online, going on to explain that it truly wasn't "gambling" in the long term and that a statistican that couldn't win at poker really wasn't worth his salt [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Didn't get the job, but am ~100% sure it wasn't due to that. This was a pretty cool, "quirky" company, though, and I figured it was a fine thing to mention.

I'm wondering, though, in general -- if you're applying for a math-oriented job, and are discussing your hobbies with your potential employer -- whether poker would be considered a net plus these days.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell them once you've got the job and they've already gotten to know you well. NEVER on a non-poker-related job interview.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

You have any hiring manager friends in the Indianapolis area?

I'm currently your ideal candidate (substituting 1 year for 2 years..) and I wouldn't mind a real job if it was something I enjoyed, something that would challenge me and something that has "potential".

I currently support myself entirely with online poker and the incentive to get a real job is low. Honestly a self-employed solution (franchise owner, startup company, etc) seems alot more attractive to me now with regards to working conditions and earnings potential. I don't mind working hard, but it has to mean something to me. That said, I still would consider a regular job if something attractive presented itself. During my education I tended to skate by, acheiving pretty good grades with near zero effort in many areas - however any project or subject that truly interested me I always completed WAY above expectations.

I'm open to advice.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

Trading success and poker success are correlated. I agree with what you are saying.

Regarding "entreprenuer" I have to say this is a very ripe area for discussion. The basic premise that a truly winning player a)disciplines his mind to b)outplay less-focused and less-disciplined opponents by c) mostly exploiting their mistakes is just one strong premise (of many) for a very convincing opposing argument that winning poker players can win big in entreprenuerial small business.

I'll get to this one shortly.

I like the contra-points raised by this reply post, since it raises a discussion about just how transferable winning poker skills actually are. And to "where" specifically.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

Can you name these subjects?

"During my education I tended to skate by, acheiving pretty good grades with near zero effort in many areas - however any project or subject that truly interested me I always completed WAY above expectations."

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trading success and poker success are correlated. I agree with what you are saying.

Regarding "entreprenuer" I have to say this is a very ripe area for discussion. The basic premise that a truly winning player a)disciplines his mind to b)outplay less-focused and less-disciplined opponents by c) mostly exploiting their mistakes is just one strong premise (of many) for a very convincing opposing argument that winning poker players can win big in entreprenuerial small business.

I'll get to this one shortly.

I like the contra-points raised by this reply post, since it raises a discussion about just how transferable winning poker skills actually are. And to "where" specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Dan.

Trading-Poker
Discipline-Discipline
Money Management-Money Management
Risk/Reward-Risk Reward
Edge-Pot odds
Timing Timing/-Seat placement

Loose Trades-Loose play
Bluffing-Bluffing
Emotions-Emotions/Tilt
Hedge-Partners
Patience-Patience
Tape Reading-Read the players
Conceal position-Conceal strength or weakness of hand

MOC Imbalance-Last player (button)
Size of Order-Size of Bet
Knowing “players”-Knowing Players

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

[ QUOTE ]

Smaller businesses die if they do not adapt. Adaptation means being quick to change your beliefs when they are no longer working. (poker teaches this.) Small business people are some of the most adaptive, open-minded people on earth for this reason. Always open. My advice is if you want a job, target firms under 150 people in size in a new and growing segment of the economy. Here you will find people who are open, and may actually understand poker better than average.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the greatest lesson I learned from playing poker.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants *EDITED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like to use the term "metaskills" when talking about fields of expertise. Bankroll management and discipline are what I call metaskills of poker. E.g. not only beating other people out of their money. However it takes a fellow rat to acknowledge those skills.

If Al was to hire someone for a job he would also know what kind of person a ph.d. in psychology is and what metaskills are related to that education. Again - he would see through the university degree and know what other skills the applicant possesses.

So make sure your hiring manager has the same background as you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Another classic example is military. You not only learn exciting new ways to kill people but also widely respected metaskills like discipline blablabla related to it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome... just awesome.

Re: Pro Poker Players as Job Applicants
 

I love poker. I also agree that most people who win enough to support themselves exclusively via poker will have some desirable qualities in an employee: intelligence, adaptability, demonstrated ability to apply themselves to something and master it, willingness to take a risk and think outside the box.

But as someone who hires people to work on my team, under me, 2+ years as an online poker pro will not necessarily work in your favor when you apply for a job with me.

Here's what I think when I see this (and if you have NO work experience past college, multiply 1,2,& 3 by 5):

1)Has not had to get up early and be at work at a given time.
2)Has not learned to work in a team environment.
3)May have problems with authority.
4)Is there any chance of a gambling problem? We have a fiduciary responsibility in my industry and also have to be licensed by the state. My concern increases due to the fact that you are now looking for work; did you run down to zero?
5)In a month are they going to decide it's not worth it?

All that said, if I'm impressed with the person in the interview, and they are the right candidate, I'll hire them. But would I be more inclined to hire them than someone just out of college? Probably not.