Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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Do you really believe one can gain a greater edge in Limit Hold 'Em than in a game like 7-card stud?

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He said you can have a better edge in NL Hold 'Em than in a game like 7-card stud.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Do you really believe one can gain a greater edge in Limit Hold 'Em than in a game like 7-card stud?

[/ QUOTE ]
He said you can have a better edge in NL Hold 'Em than in a game like 7-card stud.

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You are correct, my mistake

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

BTW, the unstated assumption is that it is a deep-stack game. For most restricted buy-in games, this is not true.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Heh... a girl taught me to play. First she smacked me when I thought that a full house beat four-of-a-kind. Then she told me who David Sklansky is.

I've got a bit more of a clue these days...

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, you got the wrong guy, man. Nobody calls me 'Lebowski,' I'm 'The Dude.'

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hahahahahaha

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Would Duder, His Dudeness or El Duderino be OK?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would Duder, His Dudeness or El Duderino be OK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not into that whole "brevity" thing.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I appreciate your insights concerning the following:

"I actually enjoy 15/30 much more because of the skill level but the profit is much higher at 10/20 and sometimes a goldmine on the 6/12 table."

Being a beginner, with only about 1,400 hands of NL HE played, I'd read again and again that folks seemed to graduate from level to level, and then stay stuck at a certain level for a long time. Unfortunately, though they'd been profitable at all lower levels, now they could barely hold their head above water. And I'd also heard about the exceedingly low profit levels at the higher levels, perhaps 1 BB/100 for example.

So I'd asked a friend what he thought the optimum profit level might be. Your remarks indicate, at least for you personally, you could scratch the 15/30, sometimes scratch the 10/20, and find greatest cash profits at 6/12 on occasion. That's what my intuition suggested!

If you'd like to elaborate on tradeoffs for other players, including aspiring players like myself, relating to choice of levels based on maximizing cash profits, rather than other intangibles, I'd applaud!

Dave

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Gee, I live in Albuquerque, NM, which has 5 competing Indian Casinos within 25 miles! Yet I've decided I want to play internet NL HE.

Your plight is magnified by the 100 miles distance from a live casino, but it's especially hurt by your reluctance to adapt to online internet casinos. Your plight would vanish if you would simply get onboard internet poker!

I play at PokerStars, and they will have thousands of tables operating simultaneously at any one time. Indeed many of these tables are freeplay games, but that is not a shortcoming of PokerStars; it's something they should be complimented about! Being a beginner at poker, I did freeplay for a few weeks, and now I've played 1,400 hands of 1/2 cents NL HE. I'll play at this level until I start winning, and so far I'm down $7.00. To go to the 5/10 cents game (the next level at PokerStars), I need to be ahead by $20 at 1/2 cents.

I say this because you too could adjust to internet poker. Just as your 7 card stud game is very different from NL HE, limit HE is very different from NL HE, and internet casinos are very different than physical casinos. Hence, each of these transitions requires a kind arena, and the internet casinos are that!

Certainly not facing real people, except in as much as they express themselves in their betting and not betting, makes the games very different. But your plight won't go away by simply telling about it; it can be dealt with if you take the bull by the horns, rather than bringing the bull to the masses, as you're doing in this forum. I say this to awaken you to reality, rather than as an indictment! I find this thread to be entertaining, but my advise is intended to eliminate your true plight. Have fun, and be profitable!

Dave

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gee, I live in Albuquerque, NM, which has 5 competing Indian Casinos within 25 miles! Yet I've decided I want to play internet NL HE.

Your plight is magnified by the 100 miles distance from a live casino, but it's especially hurt by your reluctance to adapt to online internet casinos. Your plight would vanish if you would simply get onboard internet poker!

I play at PokerStars, and they will have thousands of tables operating simultaneously at any one time. Indeed many of these tables are freeplay games, but that is not a shortcoming of PokerStars; it's something they should be complimented about! Being a beginner at poker, I did freeplay for a few weeks, and now I've played 1,400 hands of 1/2 cents NL HE. I'll play at this level until I start winning, and so far I'm down $7.00. To go to the 5/10 cents game (the next level at PokerStars), I need to be ahead by $20 at 1/2 cents.

I say this because you too could adjust to internet poker. Just as your 7 card stud game is very different from NL HE, limit HE is very different from NL HE, and internet casinos are very different than physical casinos. Hence, each of these transitions requires a kind arena, and the internet casinos are that!

Certainly not facing real people, except in as much as they express themselves in their betting and not betting, makes the games very different. But your plight won't go away by simply telling about it; it can be dealt with if you take the bull by the horns, rather than bringing the bull to the masses, as you're doing in this forum. I say this to awaken you to reality, rather than as an indictment! I find this thread to be entertaining, but my advise is intended to eliminate your true plight. Have fun, and be profitable!

Dave

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Dude, don't you know internet poker is rigged? Geesh! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

you want to nut peddle in omaha-8 and memorize board cards in stud. you prefer games with more information open and less variability (more predictability in winning hand values). what it sounds like to me is that actually hold em is too hard for you. jamming locks against donkeys is not "REAL" poker. it takes skill and certain qualities to make a living off small edges, limited information, and high variance. I advise you not to go near heads up limit hold em. (I don't know if no-limit's even tougher.)

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you want to nut peddle in omaha-8 and memorize board cards in stud. you prefer games with more information open and less variability (more predictability in winning hand values). what it sounds like to me is that actually hold em is too hard for you. jamming locks against donkeys is not "REAL" poker. it takes skill and certain qualities to make a living off small edges, limited information, and high variance. I advise you not to go near heads up limit hold em. (I don't know if no-limit's even tougher.)

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I believe the majority of pro's will tell you: if you can master 7-stud, you can master them all. It requires additional skills that would not be applied in a game like Hold 'Em. I enjoy Hold 'Em, and do well at it. But I hate the negative impact Hold 'Em has had on other games (i.e. everyone and their brother will only play Hold 'Em and not give the other games a chance)

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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and high variance.

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Do you believe that Hold 'em has more variance than Seven Card Stud? If so, why?

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Hold 'Em is a nice game for those who don't want to take the time to learn how to play poker.

(Pulling pin, running away, ducking down, covering ears)

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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Hold 'Em is a nice game for those who don't want to take the time to learn how to play poker.

(Pulling pin, running away, ducking down, covering ears)

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Heh heh, exactly. I honestly believe that stud and omaha require more knowledge and skill than Hold 'Em. Someone saying that Hold 'em is too "hard" for me is way off. I just prefer a game where I can have a larger edge over my less-observant opponents, and thus have an opportunity to win more money.

Hold 'Em is more guessing while a game like 7-stud provides you with more information. There's still guessing involved, but if you are a player who takes the time to keep track you can boost your edge because of the information available. Why wouldn't I want to have that edge?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Hold 'Em is a nice game for those who don't want to take the time to learn how to play poker.

(Pulling pin, running away, ducking down, covering ears)

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I agree hold-em is killing poker. I like to call it the 9-ball of poker. Great for TV with big action and fast play but the real pro's play sraight pool. So when the trend is over and the game gets so popular that you can't get a seat without registering a year in advance (like NASCAR CUP tickets) people will be forced play other games and those of us that took the time to learn them now will clean up in the long run. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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So when the trend is over and the game gets so popular that you can't get a seat without registering a year in advance ...

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Yes, when the game gets so popular that you have to register a year in advance, that will be a clear sign that the trend is over ... kind of like when a restaurant gets so crowded that no one goes there anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

You say Stud and Omaha require more knowledge and skill than Hold 'Em.

I think you're equating knowledge and skill. While Stud and Omaha require better knowledge of mathematics, outs, and so on, Hold 'Em is the ultimate psychological game. In Stud, a player can often tell when he is good based on folded cards, and in Omaha, if you don't have the nuts or if you're not drawing to the nuts, you're probably making a mistake. In Hold 'Em there's a lot less information, and a player rarely gets the nuts. There are far more marginal situations in No Limit Hold 'Em. I still contend that knowing when to bet the river in NLHE is the most difficult decision in poker.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I remember an old saying that anyone who says he's a writer probably isn't one. That reflects the number of people who are in love with the idea of being a writer, but who either don't want to do the work or lack the skill.

I'm starting to feel the same way about people who say they're poker players, but who only play HE, particularly NLHE.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember an old saying that anyone who says he's a writer probably isn't one. That reflects the number of people who are in love with the idea of being a writer, but who either don't want to do the work or lack the skill.

I'm starting to feel the same way about people who say they're poker players, but who only play HE, particularly NLHE.

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Usually they're there to "gamboool" and want to play hands like 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and pray for a magic flop to justify their overplaying marginal hands. They can't help but to bluff and overplay marginal hands, etc.

They don't want to take the time to learn pot odds, position or pay attention to their opponents (or board cards in a game like stud)

Works for me, more money in my pocket. Just sucks because I've had to dump all of my stud and omaha home games and just go with NL Hold 'Em because that's all the fish want to play. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You say Stud and Omaha require more knowledge and skill than Hold 'Em.

I think you're equating knowledge and skill. While Stud and Omaha require better knowledge of mathematics, outs, and so on, Hold 'Em is the ultimate psychological game. In Stud, a player can often tell when he is good based on folded cards, and in Omaha, if you don't have the nuts or if you're not drawing to the nuts, you're probably making a mistake. In Hold 'Em there's a lot less information, and a player rarely gets the nuts. There are far more marginal situations in No Limit Hold 'Em. I still contend that knowing when to bet the river in NLHE is the most difficult decision in poker.

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I completely agree that Hold 'Em is more a psychological game, while stud is more knowledge regarding odds, paying attention to board cards, etc.

But in my experience, the fish only play NL Hold 'Em because it's extremely easy to pickup and they don't need to think too much or process as much information as they'd need in stud.

I'm not saying Hold Em doesn't require any skill, it also requires logic, understanding odds, probability, position and reading your opponents. I still believe that 7-stud is more complex, and I respect a player who will play more than just NL Hold 'Em.

It's where the money is right now, but back in the day games like 5-stud and redraw games were hot. You have to be able to adjust to the changing times. If you pigeon hole yourself into only one form of poker, and that form dies out, you'll have a harder time adjusting to it's replacement, than if you had taken the time to learn the other poker forms out there.

I'd rather be strong in 1-3 poker game types, and well-rounded in the others, than to just specialize in only one game. I believe Doyle mentions that in his book.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

No one said anything about pigeon-holing. I've read Super System 2 and Ciaffone and Reuben's PL/NL. I've played pot limit Omaha, O/8, 5 stud, 7 stud, etc. Not very much of it, but I've played them enough to know basic strategies. I agree that players should become proficient at all major forms of poker.

But no-limit hold'em is the popular game right now. Casinos don't spread re-draw games and 5 stud because no one would play them now. And Hold 'Em is so popular now that I just can't see new variants of poker arising from anywhere except maybe overseas. These games are often named after places for a reason: they spread outwards from isolated locations. With less and less isolated locations, thanks to television, people are playing the game on television, and that is no limit.

No Limit Hold 'Em is real poker. The tendency to 'play the man, not the cards' is what makes it poker: he with the most knowledge will sometimes not get the most money, it is he with the most ability to read opponents, make value bets and bluffs in the right spots.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Do your players need to be taught about the other games?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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Do your players need to be taught about the other games?

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I've held Omaha hi/lo, 7-stud and stud hi/lo games before. But the Hold 'Em addicts have a terrible time understanding the games. They're worse than crack-addicted monkeys with ADHD, they can't handle anything more complex than worrying about the two cards in their own hand and that's about it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Oh, now that's just cold.

It does indeed match my experiences, but it's still cold.

Funnier'n crap, needed to be said and well appreciated.

But very cold.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've held Omaha hi/lo, 7-stud and stud hi/lo games before. But the Hold 'Em addicts have a terrible time understanding the games. They're worse than crack-addicted monkeys with ADHD, they can't handle anything more complex than worrying about the two cards in their own hand and that's about it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

And you're complaining about this??? You want smarter opponents?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I love Stud too, and hate the fact that HE takes away from all the other games, but I in no way shape or form agree with the statement that Omaha is harder than Hold Em. You sit there and wait for an awesome hand. Then you play that hand. If you don't flop the nuts, or a draw to the nuts, you fold. Even the best players agree that O8 is a much easier, boring game than Hold Em. I like the game, and I like Hold Em, but Hold Em is a substantially harder game, especially limit hold em. Please. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Now Stud, I think Stud is harder than everything, but hey, it's all Hold Em nowadays...

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I've held Omaha hi/lo, 7-stud and stud hi/lo games before. But the Hold 'Em addicts have a terrible time understanding the games. They're worse than crack-addicted monkeys with ADHD, they can't handle anything more complex than worrying about the two cards in their own hand and that's about it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

And you're complaining about this??? You want smarter opponents?

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Not at all, I just want the dumb opponents to play games where I have an even greater advantage over them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

It's going to be easier for you to get better at what the fish want to play than to convince them to play the game you want.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

So you're complaining about variance then.

Again, you haven't said if you're referring to pot limit Omaha or 7-stud, or limit. I think NLHE is much lower variance than both, and more profitable. And yeah, O8 is a far easier game. 7-stud is not particularly complex either.

Fish want action. You want their action. NLHE is an action game. Play NLHE.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you're complaining about variance then.

Again, you haven't said if you're referring to pot limit Omaha or 7-stud, or limit. I think NLHE is much lower variance than both, and more profitable. And yeah, O8 is a far easier game. 7-stud is not particularly complex either.

Fish want action. You want their action. NLHE is an action game. Play NLHE.

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Nah, variance is part of the game, regardless of whether it's hold 'em or stud. I just hate that it's so difficult to get a good game of stud or omaha going because of everyones ADHD making them only want to play Hold 'Em.

Yes, I understand that if I want to make more money, right now anyway, Hold 'Em is the way to go. It's just rotting my brain and negatively impacting my ability to play 7-stud because I'm so used to not having to pay attention and recall board cards in Hold Em.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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and ogle girls in

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Where do you play poker????

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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Would Duder, His Dudeness or El Duderino be OK?

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I'm not into that whole "brevity" thing.

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8 year-olds, dude. Pederasts.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I agree. Holdem is a great game but I think it's popularity is overrated. Card players, professionals, whatever, aren't given the respect they deserve for other games they excell at.
However, if you excel at something better than holdem, enjoy it while you can. If other games start getting the media hype like holdem is, than a lot more competition wll surface, making it more expensive to play...and just making those bad beats harder to accept. Win the money while it's there! And if the money doesn't bother you and you just want the competition, give it time. These games are too age old to just die.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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However, if you excel at something better than holdem, enjoy it while you can. If other games start getting the media hype like holdem is, than a lot more competition wll surface, making it more expensive to play...and just making those bad beats harder to accept. Win the money while it's there!

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Why do you think increased publicity for something like (e.g.) seven-card stud would make it *harder* to win money playing it?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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you've got five or six people seeing the flop with junk, and your A/A drops significantly in value.


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

http://agur-poker-classic.tripod.com/ here we are, we love texas hold em. Thats the real real deal. It's just our clubs site, but we want to add a bunch of stuff yet on our real site still being made. and yes, i agree the game is headed somwhere else.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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Hold 'Em is so fricken easy,

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Yeh, right....in the same way that chess and bridge are easy. It's harder than stud because you have less information and can eliminate less possibilities.