Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you watch the Giants-Ravens Super Bowl? Did you see Collins' Nancy-girl slide 2 yards short of a key first down because he saw Ray Lewis 7 yards in front of him?

Not only is he an intimidating hitter, he's never out of position (unlike the most over-rated player in the game, Junior Seau), *and* he's the best the best pass-defender of any linebacker who's ever played.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to call BS on the last statement, there are a lot of WLB's that are better in pass coverage, if you want to say he intimidates guys over the middle then say that. Frankly, I'm not on the Ray Lewis is god bandwagon, I think he's getting too much credit in comparison to the past LB's.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

He's the best defensive player in the history of the NFL, and he's in his prime.

What about Lawrence Taylor?

-AA

P.S. the answer to the inevitable question Taylor vs. Lewis would be like Chris Farley's answer to Bears vs. Bulls during the SNL superfan skit.

P.P.S. Manning is not the best player in the league. 1) Super Bowls = 0. 2) 4th Quarter comebacks? Big games? playoffs? 3) if you want to play the fantasy angle, I know of at least one QB that should be taken higher than him = Culpepper. And if McNabb stays on the pace he is, then McNabb. 4) Co-MVP. PEYTON MANNING IS SO GREAT BECAUSE HE WON THE MVP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! which he shared with Steve McNair. So by that argument, you would have to say that McNair and Manning are the best players in the leauge. As much as I love McNair, that just isn't true. Manning is very, very, good, but he is not the best player in the NFL.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Tom Brady should get down on his knees and thank God for the "tuck rule" every day.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's the best defensive player in the history of the NFL, and he's in his prime.

What about Lawrence Taylor?



[/ QUOTE ]

Close, but I put him 2nd. I wouldn't get in a tizzy with anyone who put LT first, though I would disagree slightly.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tell ya what, Clark and Kurn. I like Brady ALOT, but since you seem to be heading up the Brady for Prez fan club round these parts

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm haven't mentioned Brady once. I have said that Ray Lewis is the best player in the NFL (and I agree with whoever said that Priest Holmes was the second best), and I have said that Manning is an underachiever and neither the best player in the NFL, nor the best QB.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Manning isn't in the same stratosphere as Elway. Elway carried very mediocre teams with few weapons (the three amigos? LOL) to three Superbowls on his own. And it wasn't Elway who lost those Superbowls, it was the miserable Denver defense. The fact that he made it there 3 tims was simply amazing.

Manning lost in the first round (after the bye) the year they had home field (inexcusable). He was 0-3 in playoff games prior to last year (IIRC he was favored in all of them). He singlehandedly destroyed the Colts last year vs the Pats with his 4 turnovers in a game where his defense gave him every chance to win.

Not counting James' injury year, he's had a top 5RB and top 2WR on his team on a consistent basis, weapons Elway and Marino never had.

I mean, its not like he is getting to the Superbowl and losing, he's losing before even getting that far.

And have I mentioned how many National Championships he cost Tennessee because of his inability to beat Florida (which Tee Martin did the year after he left)? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

And Jeff Hostetler and Trent Dilfer had Lawrence Taylor and Ray Lewis. That's kind of the point. LT and Ray Lewis.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tom Brady should get down on his knees and thank God for the "tuck rule" every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know Florida fans thank Tennessee for recruiting Peyton Manning every day. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Are you saying that the Ravens wouldn't have won their Super Bowl if they had Manning? I sincerely doubt that that's true.

Your argument seems to be that since Peyton hasn't been on a championship team he's overrated. To be honest I'm not a great Peyton Manning fan but I can think of many teams that has had great defenses that if the Colts had as good of a defense as some of those teams, Manning would probably have been on a championship team already. The Colts defense sucks and has sucked. Even the legendary Joe Montanna played on teams that had excellent defenses. Therefore I don't necessarily think that not playing on championship teams doesn't make you the best player.

If the Colts had Ray Lewis would they win a championship? I doubt it. An old cliche but it's a team game and one great, great player can't carry 10 relatively mediocre to poor performers.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

But it wasn't the Indy defenses that cost them the games that they lost. It was Manning. That's the point.

Elway, by comparison, not only lost the big ones because of his defense, he was able to carry his defense into the big one.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Ok then the stuff about Hostettler, Dilfer, and Lewis is a non sequiter.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

say it with me..... M.... V.... P... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
say it with me..... M.... V.... P... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

You are forgetting the "C", the "O" and the "-".

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are forgetting the "C", the "O" and the "-".

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

I'm talking about this year. (and next year, and...)

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tell ya what, Clark and Kurn. I like Brady ALOT, but since you seem to be heading up the Brady for Prez fan club round these parts

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm haven't mentioned Brady once. I have said that Ray Lewis is the best player in the NFL (and I agree with whoever said that Priest Holmes was the second best), and I have said that Manning is an underachiever and neither the best player in the NFL, nor the best QB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think LaDainian Tomlinson is the best RB in the NFL right now. But since he plays for San Diego no one ever talks about him.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

The problem with evaluating the "greatness" of invididual players is that it invariably requires that we look at a career as a package, rather than as a collection of discreet events (games).
Does Manning have a history of coming up short in big games? Of course. Is he beginning to show improvement in big games? Absolutely. Nobody has even mentioned the Tampa Monday night game last year. Down 3 touchdowns, with 4 minutes left, on the road, against the undefeated, defending Super bowl champs, and he led them back to victory. The first playoff game against Denver: faced with a team that had just waxed them two weeks earlier, he turns in an almost flawless performance. The second playoff game against KC: another flawless performance that almost went to waste because of Indy's flummoxed defense and special teams coverage. And then the New England game, where the officials decided that the rules should stop applying to the Pats defensive backs.
None of the Peyton-bashers has even mentioned these games, except the NE game which tends to prove their point. Do the first three games I discussed even enter into the calculus? Or do they get tossed out because they don't support your opinion?

As for the argument that Peyton has been surrounded by so much talent and hasn't gotten the job done...Did it ever occur to you that the main reason why Marvin has gotten so much credit for being such a great receiver is that he has Peyton Manning throwing him the ball? Have you even considered that?

A final assignment for the Peyton-bashers:

Reconcile these statements:

1. Defense wins championships.

2. Over the course of Peyton Manning's career, the Colts' defense has been below average.

3. Peyton Manning is not a great quarterback because he has not won a championship.

4. Peyton Manning does not play defense.

Let's hear it.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

LT is right behind Priest and on a par with Moss for the #3 slot IMO.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

You make some pretty good points for an academic argument. But the bottom line is that in that AFC championship game vs. the Patriots last year he threw 4, I repeat 4 interceptions.

If he continues to perform like that in big playoff games he will never get to, let alone win a Super Bowl and if that failure is directly attributable to him (and I think it is if he throws 4 intys), he can never be considered one of the all time greats.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You make some pretty good points for an academic argument. But the bottom line is that in that AFC championship game vs. the Patriots last year he threw 4, I repeat 4 interceptions.

If he continues to perform like that in big playoff games he will never get to, let alone win a Super Bowl and if that failure is directly attributable to him (and I think it is if he throws 4 intys), he can never be considered one of the all time greats.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point wasn't that last year's AFC championship game shouldn't be considered. Of course it should, and he played badly. But none of the arguments against him has even mentioned the big games where he played well, which have occurred more often over the past couple years.

If you are evaluating a player's overall greatness, aren't you required to consider the games where he played well? That's what I was getting at in that part of my post.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Didn't the NFL specifically change the receiver coverage rule due to the Pats coverage tactics in this game?

and, to the poster who mentioned his comeback vs the Bucs last year; well done

Does Brady have a comeback CLOSE to that?

Why wasn't brady so great in 2002, when his team didn't even make the playoffs?

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't the NFL specifically change the receiver coverage rule due to the Pats coverage tactics in this game?

and, to the poster who mentioned his comeback vs the Bucs last year; well done

Does Brady have a comeback CLOSE to that?

Why wasn't brady so great in 2002, when his team didn't even make the playoffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. No, the rule was not changed at all. The rule is exactly the same as always. But in response to some serious whining by the Colts, the NFL has diredcted officials to enforce this rule more strictly. This is already turning out to be quite a farce in a lot of games this year where fouls are called on phantom and ticky tack touches.

2. Brady doesn't have a single comeback as dramatic as that one but he has numerous(I'm too lazy to research it) comeback victories and I believe he is something like 8-0 in overtime games.

3. Asking why Brady wasn't so great in 2002 is really disingeuous. He was Super Bowl MVP in 2001, in 2002 the Pats were 9-7 and missed the playoffs on the 3rd tie breaker and he was Super Bowl MVP in 2003. I think a lot of NFL quarterbacks would be envious of that record.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Asking why Brady wasn't so great in 2002 is really disingeuous. He was Super Bowl MVP in 2001, in 2002 the Pats were 9-7 and missed the playoffs on the 3rd tie breaker and he was Super Bowl MVP in 2003. I think a lot of NFL quarterbacks would be envious of that record.


[/ QUOTE ]

Kurt Warner has been Superbowl MVP once AND league MVP twice in the last 5 years. Want him?

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is exactly the same as always. But in response to some serious whining by the Colts, the NFL has diredcted officials to enforce this rule more strictly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly.

A. Do you really think the AFC championship game was well officiated?

B. Do you really think the Indianapolis Colts have some kind of special power that allows them to affect the rules?

The Raiders sure bitched a lot about the tuck rule, but it didn't change.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The rule is exactly the same as always. But in response to some serious whining by the Colts, the NFL has diredcted officials to enforce this rule more strictly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly.

A. Do you really think the AFC championship game was well officiated?

B. Do you really think the Indianapolis Colts have some kind of special power that allows them to affect the rules?

The Raiders sure bitched a lot about the tuck rule, but it didn't change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whining about the officiating is a losers mentality. Bottom line is the Patriots won 2 Super Bowls in 3 years with a guy that most Patriot fans wouldn't trade for anyone. We see the guy week in and week out for every play and we know how lucky we are have him.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

You completely ignored my questions. You said the emphasis on the rules was changed because the Colts whined about the officiating. You responded to my post by saying something along the lines of "Tom Brady is the best." Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I wouldn't want to get rid of a 2-time superbowl winning QB either. But I never said anything about Brady.

Bottom line: the emphasis on the rules was realigned because some impartial observers in the league office realized that there were some ridiculous non-calls in that game. Any number of columnists who are not Colts fans had this reaction to that game. The only columnists I have read that thought that game was called well are Boston folks (read: Bill Simmons).

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You completely ignored my questions. You said the emphasis on the rules was changed because the Colts whined about the officiating. You responded to my post by saying something along the lines of "Tom Brady is the best." Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I wouldn't want to get rid of a 2-time superbowl winning QB either. But I never said anything about Brady.

Bottom line: the emphasis on the rules was realigned because some impartial observers in the league office realized that there were some ridiculous non-calls in that game. Any number of columnists who are not Colts fans had this reaction to that game. The only columnists I have read that thought that game was called well are Boston folks (read: Bill Simmons).

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still whining.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Let's say they each play 10 more years and are eligible 5 years after that. That's 15 years from now.

OK, providing neither of them suffers a serious injury before age 33 and we both are still alive when the first one is inducted, you're on for $10,000.

Clarification: TOM Brady & PAYTON Manning.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does Brady have a comeback CLOSE to that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't have a comeback when your team is ahead the whole game.

This whole Peyton vs. Brady thing is crazy. Players and teams are measured by one thing and one thing only - championships. Period.

I don't care what Manning does, and what stats he puts up. If he doesn't win the Super Bowl, his career is incomplete. He'll then be relegated to Marino status and not Montana status. Great QB, never won the big one.

And JTrout, you think league MVP means anything? Please, Manning would trade any MVP award for a ring in a nanosecond.

The MVP of the league is Bill Belichek. Somehow he's navigated the salary cap and draft the past few years, and built a championship TEAM that doesn't depend on any one player. In this day and age in the NFL, this is going to prove to be extremely rare.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Meh. When somebody stops addressing my arguments and accuses me of whining, I consider that a point in my favor. Hooray for me.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

B. Do you really think the Indianapolis Colts have some kind of special power that allows them to affect the rules?

Bottom line: the emphasis on the rules was realigned because some impartial observers in the league office realized that there were some ridiculous non-calls in that game.

There are only 8 members of the the NFL Competition Committee, the group responsible for this renewed emphasis on illegal contact, wonder if Bill Polian is one?




Actually, there was allegedly complaining from a number of coaches around the league about grabbing and holding according to a survey commissioned by the competition committee as well as a study that showed passing yards declined by 10 yards per game (212 to 202) between 2002 and 2003. I mean 10 yards over such a statistically significant period of time and anonymous complaints by "a number of" coaches, holy cow, I am sure the colts had nothing to do with this very needed rule change!

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

ok. Then explain to me how they unilaterally perpetuated this nefarious fraud upon the public.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say they each play 10 more years and are eligible 5 years after that. That's 15 years from now.

OK, providing neither of them suffers a serious injury before age 33 and we both are still alive when the first one is inducted, you're on for $10,000.

Clarification: TOM Brady & PAYTON Manning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geez, Kurn; From what I think I know about you, us BOTH being alive ~15 years from now is the toughest caveat on here. I'm 34 and a sprightly 155lbs.

I believe I've seen you're pushing 50 hard, pushing 3 baloons harder(maybe from the wrong direction...), and just as likely to bite it wiping out on your Harley or having a heart attack after shagging a honey in Sturgis as you are to be around in 15.

If I have you mischaracterized above, substitute "ejDo" for "harley", and "be'Hom" and "Qo'noS" for "honey" and "Sturgis".

Otherwise, I'm down for the bet. Obviously, the logistics would have to be worked out, but I'm sure you wouldn't lay'Ha on me...

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Who said anything about unilateral? You're being very disingenuous in suggesting that this was an impartial decision which the colts, as an organization, had nothing to do with. There is no shame in admitting Bill Polian was a significant factor in this renewed emphasis (regardless of his PR statements to the contrary), as well Rich McKay, and coaches like Mike Martz, Bill Cowher and Mike Holmgren who, amongst others, vociferously supported this renewed emphasis as well.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. When somebody stops addressing my arguments and accuses me of whining, I consider that a point in my favor. Hooray for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think you are? A special prosecutor or something?
I addressed all your supposed arguments once point by point. If you didn't get it the first time I'm not going to allow a cross examination. Unless of course you have suppena powers.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

ok, maybe you caught me out on a limb a little bit. But keep in mind I was responding to a poster who had just claimed that the emphasis was changed solely because of the Colts' "whining." I apologize if my response to your post came off as crass.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Asking why Brady wasn't so great in 2002 is really disingeuous. He was Super Bowl MVP in 2001, in 2002 the Pats were 9-7 and missed the playoffs on the 3rd tie breaker and he was Super Bowl MVP in 2003. I think a lot of NFL quarterbacks would be envious of that record.


[/ QUOTE ]

Kurt Warner has been Superbowl MVP once AND league MVP twice in the last 5 years. Want him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Over Brady, no. But before he hurt his hand, yes, I would take Kurt Warner on my team. Btw, he hasn't looked too shabby the last two weeks.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

I'm 53 & could stand to drop 50 lb. So, yeah, the actuarial tables favor you. On the other hand there's no history of coronary disease in my family and my cholesterol has never been higher than 150. Knowing my family history, the smart money's on cancer to do me in at around 70, so give or take a couple of years on my time clock or the QB's retirement date, I may get to collect (or pay off).

By the way, the bet is who gets in quickest after retirement, not just who gets in 1st. Otherwise it's a sucker bet since Manning's older and likely to be eligible before Brady.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

And JTrout, you think league MVP means anything?

yes. something.

Please, Manning would trade any MVP award for a ring in a nanosecond.

I'm sure you are correct on this point.

The MVP of the league is Bill Belichek.

you're off track here. the "P" stands for player! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Players and teams are measured by one thing and one thing only - championships. Period

He'll then be relegated to Marino status and not Montana status. Great QB, never won the big one.

These statements are contradictory. How can you become "great" if you are measured by one thing, and one thing only, and you didn't achieve it? (The answer: you are measured by more than one thing.)

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

Yep, strictly based on eligibility. So if BOTH get in first year/ballot, it's a tied bet. Again, we'd have to iron specifics, but otherwise, yer on.

Re: Peyton after two quarters...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 53 & could stand to drop 50 lb. So, yeah, the actuarial tables favor you. On the other hand there's no history of coronary disease in my family and my cholesterol has never been higher than 150. Knowing my family history, the smart money's on cancer to do me in at around 70, so give or take a couple of years on my time clock or the QB's retirement date, I may get to collect (or pay off).

By the way, the bet is who gets in quickest after retirement, not just who gets in 1st. Otherwise it's a sucker bet since Manning's older and likely to be eligible before Brady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn you Kurn, i spend 20 minutes searching for a Klingon Dictionary, and you don't even acknowledge it.

Hab SoSlI' Quch!