Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, honestly I'm not sure. I think they are better situations because there is less danger of facing an overpair but also somewhat worse because it will be capped more often behind you. I like the second scenario better because even though the PFR of the donks isn't much higher they have much worse hands on average than the tags since they will randomly be raising junk when bored. Also your implied odds will be much better since they're so likely to spew postflop.

So I think my SOP would be to fold in 1.) and call in 2.) but I could be convinced to do otherwise if someone makes a good case.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'd definitely call in both cases btw

Re: worst hand ever
 

What's your calling range in situation 1?

Re: worst hand ever
 

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i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check calling seems like you are often missing quite a few bets. Your hand screams flush draw, so your best hand could easily be checked behind.

As for the bet/fold line... CO's hand also seems like a flush draw, and a better one at that. Also, he will know that you are on the flush draw, as that is really the only thing you could be on. If he is a pretty smart player, I think he knows that you might fold to a raise, as you would be thinking that your flush draw is no good. He could do this with a strong hand that he thinks he is ahead of the other player, but behind you. I dunno how thinking most players get, so I think against a regular guy, a fold isn't losing all that much money, if any.

[/ QUOTE ]umm how about no. no player is raising here ever because they think you have a decent sized flush and expect you to fold even 1% of the time. and by josh's line, this flush has got to be at least K high or Q high right? (hard to imagine him cold calling 2 cold pf with J9s or JTs)

Re: worst hand ever
 

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i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check calling seems like you are often missing quite a few bets. Your hand screams flush draw, so your best hand could easily be checked behind.

As for the bet/fold line... CO's hand also seems like a flush draw, and a better one at that. Also, he will know that you are on the flush draw, as that is really the only thing you could be on. If he is a pretty smart player, I think he knows that you might fold to a raise, as you would be thinking that your flush draw is no good. He could do this with a strong hand that he thinks he is ahead of the other player, but behind you. I dunno how thinking most players get, so I think against a regular guy, a fold isn't losing all that much money, if any.

[/ QUOTE ]umm how about no. no player is raising here ever because they think you have a decent sized flush and expect you to fold even 1% of the time. and by josh's line, this flush has got to be at least K high or Q high right? (hard to imagine him cold calling 2 cold pf with J9s or JTs)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it happens even remotely often. I am just saying that a thinking player could place him on a non nut (Q high or K high) flush somewhat easily. That player would also know that Josh would know his hand looks like a flush draw, so that his raise would look like the nut flush draw. I am not saying this happens too often, and I am probably getting too deep into the levels of thinking. I just thought it was interesting that if the game were really on that level, river raiser could be raising with a worse hand in hopes of getting Josh to fold, yet collect value from the other opponent.

Given the hand almost always, I think Josh is beat almost always, and a fold isn't bad.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that situation is similar to this one at all. I think that this call is really bad.

Re: worst hand ever
 

I would check and make a crying call on river. When the turn is checked through and a diamond comes on the river, I have a hard time putting CO on anything except for a better flush. When you got raised on the river, you made a good fold.

Pre flop call is probably okay, you're getting close to 7.67:2 on a call best case and 9.67:3 worst case with an equity of ~25% on average.

Re: worst hand ever
 

why do you think check/call is better than bet/fold though? i'm pretty sure he has a better flush but i'm not check/folding...

Re: worst hand ever
 

Anyone remember the Fur Coat Dilemma?

Re: worst hand ever
 

you need 8:2 to make a preflop call with 25% equity and thats not even the best scenario. youre in a reverse implied odd situation because youre out of position postflop trapped between the 3bettor and the openraiser not to mention youre playing dominated cards.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
you need 8:2 to make a preflop call with 25% equity and thats not even the best scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come up with the 8:2 figure?

Re: worst hand ever
 

sorry jeff.... my bad 6:2

Re: worst hand ever
 

On the river you're getting 16:1 that your opponent is a moron. With stats like 35/22, I think he's a moron more than once in 17 times. Against a sane player this fold is fine b/c the only hand he could have is a better hand but against this guy? you can't make a fold like that. Is is possible he's an idiot and plays AK like this? maybe KJ like this? How bout JJ or KK? He doesn't have to do this often for this to be the correct.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the river you're getting 16:1 that your opponent is a moron. With stats like 35/22, I think he's a moron more than once in 17 times. Against a sane player this fold is fine b/c the only hand he could have is a better hand but against this guy? you can't make a fold like that. Is is possible he's an idiot and plays AK like this? maybe KJ like this? How bout JJ or KK? He doesn't have to do this often for this to be the correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think autoclassifying a 35/22 player as an idiot is good poker at all.

Rob

Re: worst hand ever
 

Well, you need to be good like 5% of the time for the call to be EV.

Of the hundred times he raises the river, could it not be that:
1) One time he will have misclicked
2) One time he will have decided to get cute preflop with 8d9d
3) One time he was on tilt
4) One time he decided to play 66 strangely
5) One time he read a Barron article and made a hopeless bluff with AK
?

Well, whatever, even if I am never good enough to make that fold, I won't ever feel bad about it.

Re: worst hand ever
 

¿Who are you, and why are you playing so many hands against me?

Re: worst hand ever
 

He is a solid player... but he is easy to knock off a hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: worst hand ever
 

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Anyways, I really hesitate to post this, because I can't imagine you overlooked such a crucial piece of information, but the fact that a threebet is much stronger than an openraise makes this a pretty clear preflop fold, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

The post where I tried to make this same point must have been really unclear.

/mc

Re: worst hand ever
 

fwiw i would never ever consider even thinking about folding here. lemme check my winrate again.....

Re: worst hand ever
 

"The post where I tried to make this same point must have been really unclear."

Sorry, I apologize for ripping off your expert advice. I am also sorry but not apologetic that you are a huge douchebag.

-Michael

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The post where I tried to make this same point must have been really unclear."

Sorry, I apologize for ripping off your expert advice. I am also sorry but not apologetic that you are a huge douchebag.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Apology accepted.

/mc

Re: worst hand ever
 

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fwiw i would never ever consider even thinking about folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me either. Pot is biiiig and i've seen LAGy TAGs do weird stuff so taht i'm no 95% certain my flush is no good.

Surf

Re: worst hand ever
 

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as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

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no offense, but are you serious? 'favorite' defined as illogical emotional attachment?

Re: worst hand ever
 

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as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but are you serious? 'favorite' defined as illogical emotional attachment?

[/ QUOTE ]

I now know of four people for which J9s is their favorite hand.

Re: worst hand ever
 

It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

results
 

i have a new least favorite hand

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

</3

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

</3

[/ QUOTE ]


wow is that the first ANTI-HEART ever given by anyone ever or am i out of the loop?

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

</3

[/ QUOTE ]


wow is that the first ANTI-HEART ever given by anyone ever or am i out of the loop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I used it for the first time on AIM with shant without prior knowledge of it a few months ago. Of course it's possible it arose before that but I'm not aware of it. It has trickled onto the board recently.

Re: worst hand ever
 

why did you call preflop? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: worst hand ever
 

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why did you call preflop? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
ITS HIS FAVORITE HAND.

you are anti-fun, or what?

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine too [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think autoclassifying a 35/22 player as an idiot is good poker at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying he's an idiot all the time, just 5% of the time. He doesn't even need to be a complete idiot for him to do this, maybe he just caught a case of FPS or something. We're all human and we all make mistakes and do weird things. I think its possible he does that once in 16 tries

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think autoclassifying a 35/22 player as an idiot is good poker at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying he's an idiot all the time, just 5% of the time. He doesn't even need to be a complete idiot for him to do this, maybe he just caught a case of FPS or something. We're all human and we all make mistakes and do weird things. I think its possible he does that once in 16 tries

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If you are assuming that a non idiot will never raise this turn with a hand that you beat, then the 5% number for how often he need to be an idiot to call the river is wrong. He need to be an idiot quite a bit more than that, as even idiots will have you beat some of the time.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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what do i beat

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I find myself saying this a lot on the river when facing a raise, yet I usually call anyways, especially when the pot is this big. Pretty often I get shown a hand that I never would have predicted.

These semi-TAG's make a lot of weird plays. He could easily have a badly played set. I think your river fold is horrible.

Re: worst hand ever
 

I finally opened this thread thinking it would be good for a laugh. It was.

If you think calling pf is comparable to calling a light raise and cc on the button, then you don't think much of these 2 opponents - esp. CO. Given that, I don't see how you cannot call the river raise. I was happy to read later in the thread that you did.

I hate the pf call.
I hate the river fold.
I hate "favourite hands" (other than AA)

No </3 here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: worst hand ever
 

I def let these ones go preflop, but thats me, i can see talking myself into them. But i don't like the prospect of flopping a draw and having to pay several bets thanks to the TAGs in there.
Flop and turn are fairly standard. The river looks really bad and against his probable range its a good fold. if he had taken a bad beet at some point recently or had shown himself to be overly tricky with a set i would use that as an excuse to call.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think calling pf is comparable to calling a light raise and cc on the button, then you don't think much of these 2 opponents - esp. CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. This is the worst part of the hand in my opinion, not necessarily the call but the thinking behind it.

/mc

Re: worst hand ever
 

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No </3 here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]



HAHAHAHA YOU IDIOT YOU JUST GAVE ME <3<3<3<3 HAHAHAA BY SAYING THAT NO ANTI HEART YOU GAVE M E HEART HAHAHAHA ALOLOLAHAHAHAHAHA

but yes i know this call pf sucks and it is even worse than i thought it was when i first posted

surf please lock this thread