Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

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Ugh, I hate this. Reverse implied odds KILL you here. I'm not willing to invest half my stack out of position preflop with JJ. If you're going to play after the reraise, I think you have to push.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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I would have raised preflop to begin with, and make things a lot easier. I open for 75-100 preflop and see what happens. JJ is a tough hand to play out of position, and raising preflop gives us pretty cheap information about what hands we are up agaist postflop. You played preflop like you were playing for set value, so then you should fold the flop when you miss.

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This is good information.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

FWIW I think "going broke" in this hand and blindly pushing preflop with JJ early on (some guys mentioned it) are both worse than limping preflop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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I'm confused now. You have no problem continuation betting a completely whiffed AK against one opponent but suddenly my jacks have no value if an overcard comes???

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1) I don't continuation bet 100% of the time.
2) If AK hits we know we are almost always ahead. If it misses we know we are almost always behind. With JJ, no matter what the flop is we don't know unless it has a J on it or it comes like AKQ.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

FWIW I think opening allin here is stronger than simply folding preflop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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This is definitely a win a small pot lose your whole stack situation. I would rather fold preflop (instead of the limp) than play a big pot here out of position when I have 23 BB left.

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You're not advocating open folding jacks here? I'm sure I'm misreading. I'm open raising jacks pretty much everytime, especially when I have a short stack. Jacks are a darn good hand, half the time you get a nice flop, sometimes you get 1 overcard where a continuation will take it down a solid % of the time. I think this weak playing of jacks is passing up tons of value.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

curtains do u really ever go broke here at the 215s?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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I'm raising in this spot with jacks EVERY time.

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Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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curtains do u really ever go broke here at the 215s?

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Hero has 680 chips, and this is a $33. You can't talk about this hand as though it was a $215.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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1) I don't continuation bet 100% of the time.

2) If AK hits we know we are almost always ahead. If it misses we know we are almost always behind. With JJ, no matter what the flop is we don't know unless it has a J on it or it comes like AKQ.

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That's kind of misleading. Sure you pretty well know you're ahead when an A or K comes. But when an A or K doesn't come, you're just guessing.

Ever thought of this: You keep talking about the times that an over comes to my jacks. But AK whiffs more often than an over to my jacks flops. And just because a Q or K comes doesn't mean I'm beaten. (Aces are of course more scary.) So the uncertainty that you speak of happens more often with AK than it does with Jacks since most of the time with jacks when there are no overs I'm still ahead. I'm not scared betting into a queen high flop with a pair of jacks. Like anything else, if I meet resistance, I'll re-evalute.

But given the hero's stack pre-flop, it is important that he takes down a pot. Even if it's "small" (a raise to 90 followed by a call, a flop bet and a fold by his lone opponent) this pot is important. Limping would not be nearly as bad if he had a large stack already.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

im not, i guess im asking a semi-related question.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Yeah but okay its hard to answer because the situation would be so different.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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So the uncertainty that you speak of happens more often with AK than it does with Jacks

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No, my point is that when you whiff you can be reasonably confident that you are beaten.

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But given the hero's stack pre-flop, it is important that he takes down a pot. Even if it's "small" (a raise to 90 followed by a call, a flop bet and a fold by his lone opponent) this pot is important. Limping would not be nearly as bad if he had a large stack already.

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I must admit I am used to deeper stacks than on Party. Yea, I'm raising this in level 4 on Stars.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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FWIW I think opening allin here is stronger than simply folding preflop.

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You would push with 23BB from UTG+1??? You are only going to net 45 in chips if everyone folds.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

relax Im just comparing that to folding preflop. I would do neither of those 2 things.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

He says it's better than folding. Anyway there's bound to be some fool every now and then that feels like gambling with 88.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

thats why i play the 109s rather than the 215s, good aggressive players in step 5s will do things like reraise with hands like AQ and put pressure on, the 109s play a perfect mix of loose and passive where its only donks re raising with hands worse than JJ other than AK because you get called so much.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

I always like a good debate, Durron. It seems like we never agree but yet we're both winning players.

Nothing like a discussion about playing Jacks from EP to get 50 responses in one hour! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

its def not the best line but at a 30 i would assume its def +EV to push right away with JJ.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

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This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

Hero in this hand started the hand with 690 chips! Not raising is really bad here. Think about all the pots he ends up winning by raising here. He needs chips, raising with the 4th best hand in poker sounds like a good way to get them.

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JJ is actually 5th best starting hand.
AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ...

But tell me what happened if he raises like you want him too, and their is a A or K that flops. Now what?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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JJ is actually 5th best starting hand.
AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ...

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AK is better than JJ? That's news to me. I'll guarantee you that I've made more money with JJ, but whatever.

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But tell me what happened if he raises like you want him too, and their is a A or K that flops. Now what?

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Sometimes you get flops you don't like. That's poker. By that logic, I'd fold kings pre-flop just in case an ace is coming.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

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Ugh, I hate this. Reverse implied odds KILL you here. I'm not willing to invest half my stack out of position preflop with JJ. If you're going to play after the reraise, I think you have to push.

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I understand, but the enemy is committed. I don't see the PF push-three-bet as giving you any FE at all. I shut down if an A hits the flop and push most of the time otherwise.

JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

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What if he only raises with overpairs and AK?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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Well also we are pretty shortstacked!


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Wtf are you talking about?!?! You have almost 700 chips in an 800 chip game.

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I just don't understand how playing this way with JJ is so common, it just seems so terrible to me.


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You mean limp/calling/stuffing flop?

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Sometimes it at least has some merit, but in this situation I think it's just mindless.

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Being careful with JJ early is good in a 33 b/c proper late game play is particularly poor and the hero already has reads that would lead one to believe he is behind or only slightly ahead of mp2.

FWIW I'm liable to limp/fold preflop here and I don't think it's particularly horrible (in fact, I think it's *good*). Raising is an option too but in the 800 chip game you're getting raised behind and almost pot committed vs. what's likely to be at best overs. I'm more likely to do this in a 1000 chip game.

By limping and seeing a flop that was unraised preflop you will have a much better idea of where you may stand and how to play the flop. If it is raised preflop by a player who is more or less solid, you can muck and know that playing an overcard flop or an undercard flop would be tricky as you're liable to go broke quite often or just win a relatively small amount of chips.

I think limp/calling a substantial raise is the worst way to play this hand when OOP (unless it was someone like MP1 who raised preflop).

Yugoslav
Who thinks folding is sublime...

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

You guys know I've basically given up on trying to persuade anyone to raise PF (because no one does), but I'll just say raising to 100 and having a solid player behind you make it 300 is the only way to avoid going broke here.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Oh my god I agreed with Yugo on a hand. What has the world come to....

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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JJ OOP is difficult with a stack this shallow. On a deeper stack, I can get away, but I don't think so here. If I know the raiser well and know he won't raise without an overpair, then it's a totally different story.

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What if he only raises with overpairs and AK?

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You're still pos-EV. Pokerstove says overpairs and AK are a 63/35 favorite to the JJ, which is still under two to one. That assumes you can see the river for free, of course -- which usually isn't the case.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

It seems obvious to me that a 3x raise is justified here for pre-flop informational purposes. So, you raise to 90. K-K probably raised to 270 or goes all-in. Given your read on him as not crazy, I probably believe him and throw away at this point and look for a better spot, figuring I'm either down to AA, KK, QQ and a 4.5:1 dog, or coin-flipping it with AK. Neither sounds fun to me, and you still have plenty of chips to make something happen.

You definitely do NOT have to go broke on this hand. The mistake was not pushing out the riff-raff and gathering information pre-flop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

45,

I agree with your posts, UTG+1 is auto-raise with JJ especially with the med stack. KK will re-raise and I can make the call if I feel villian will re-raise with AK or fold if I feel he has what he's supposed to, QQ-AA.

Limping JJ is playing it like 77 or 66 for set value, your stack is too small to play them like small PPs.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Let's face it, most of the time a player will go broke with this hand because most of the time a player doesn't run into this situation, i.e., a higher overpair. Yes, you could have raised and then folded to a re-raise, putting him on QQ, KK, or AA, but unless you are extremely tight, I think you still would have to take a flop here. Either way, once you committed yourself to calling the raise and seeing the flop, you HAD to get all of your money in post-flop. With your stack that low, there is absolutely NO way you can fold on the flop, to do so would be a total tragedy.

I don't mind calling with jacks in early position and then calling any raise behind, with the intention of mucking if there are overcards on the flop and lots of action, and making a move if you're an overpair. The deception value is high and the risks are much lower than trying to play jacks strongly out of position.

But the point is, you pretty much have to see a flop here, and you pretty much have to push post-flop. You just got unlucky.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

I don't have enough SNGs behind me but anybody have an extensive PT database that they could query for this kind of situation (call PFR w/ JJ &amp; you flop an overpair, or some similar query) and see whether you won or lost chips in the long run?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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I don't have enough SNGs behind me but anybody have an extensive PT database that they could query for this kind of situation (call PFR w/ JJ &amp; you flop an overpair, or some similar query) and see whether you won or lost chips in the long run?

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I have no idea how, yet, to make PT do that. I've been meaning to buy the $20 PT guide that will teach me how to do things like this, but haven't yet. I think I must.

I don't have a deep database yet, either -- about 5K hands.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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Let's face it, most of the time a player will go broke with this hand because most of the time a player doesn't run into this situation, i.e., a higher overpair. Yes, you could have raised and then folded to a re-raise, putting him on QQ, KK, or AA, but unless you are extremely tight, I think you still would have to take a flop here. Either way, once you committed yourself to calling the raise and seeing the flop, you HAD to get all of your money in post-flop. With your stack that low, there is absolutely NO way you can fold on the flop, to do so would be a total tragedy.

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So you agree with the former of my line, raise, see re-rasie behind, call? You feel this guy is AK/AQ? Then call. You have basically said that this guy doesn't mind the gap (if Hero raised UTG+1) - which on no reads early is assuming donk...safe?

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But the point is, you pretty much have to see a flop here, and you pretty much have to push post-flop. You just got unlucky.


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you have to push after seeing this flop? smells weak to me: you should have just pushed pre-flop...if you were ahead then, you are ahead now.

There are too many factors involved here that are unknown since he limped with JJ. The re-raise amount would be crucial to know if he had raised UTG+1.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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You guys know I've basically given up on trying to persuade anyone to raise PF (because no one does), but I'll just say raising to 100 and having a solid player behind you make it 300 is the only way to avoid going broke here.

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Its not the only way (according to some) but, IMO, it is the only +EV way to avoid it...because if you do go broke after raising and being reraised, you played the hand correctly and the bust should be more than offset by the value you gain from the other times you correctly raised and won a small-big pot.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

FWIW I said Hero's mistake was calling the raise preflop, but I think it is marginal. It is a mult-way pot with a donk involved, reasons enough to call preflop with JJ.

Yes, with deeper stacks you could re-raise him on the flop and still get away form your hand. However, with t800 without a good read I think folding this flop is going cost you in the long run.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

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If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

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so are you suggesting to bet here or fold?