Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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How would it make you feel? Is there something the instructor could write that would encourage you?

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If he doesn't care anyways, this note won't mean anything. If he is the type of guy who seems like he'd respond well to motivation, then by all means write something like this and also include something about coming into your office hours, contacting you, etc.

Its all up to the student though and if he is a lazy ass, most likely nothing you say or do will change him.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

The only problem is that you are assuming that you can tell how hard the student worked. If I turned in a real POS assignment, I would want to know why the assignment was lousy, not be told that I need to put in more effort.

This is, of course, assuming that you don't actually grade on effort.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I know I'd much rather prefer if you wrote something like "Please discuss your assignment with me after class or during office hours" or something. I guess it's okay if you don't have the time, but something like that should really be discussed in person.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Id drop the class too

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

did you do this? or is this just something you've considered doing?

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

If I respected the instructor and I felt he/she was willing to help me directly and/or invest some amount of tutelege in me I'd feel very challenged and motivated.

Unless the class sucked donkey balls...and frankly, if I'm getting that message, I probably feel the class sucks big big donkey balls.

Yugoslav

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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How about if I put a <font color="red">Enjoy!</font> at the end?

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FYP

Yugoslav

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Do you have an office on campus? Because when I got called into a prof's office, and was told not to be in there whining around Christmas, because he didn't need that kind of [censored], it was very motivating. I got the #3 score for all sections of the class on the final.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I think it depends highly on how much effort I actually really put into it. If I ever got this note, I imagine I would have seen it coming, or would be absolutely shocked and realized that I finally landed in a real "college" class as compared to most courses even at the 300 level.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

well, i dont have a major field of study yet, if i did, id probly take this seriously and try to get my act together, but if a teacher gave me this note now, id probly just think, "whatever, [censored] this stupid piece of [censored]," and say something like, "oh, ok i will do my best to do a better job next time, thanks"

what classes do you teach?

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Wow, there are a lot of PC pussies around here. The only thing wrong is you should have left out 'Dear' at the beginning of the note, and 'Very sincerely, Jason' at the end of the note. Also the second sentence would sound better as, "The level of effort put into this solution set is not acceptable."

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I would drop the class, to be honest.

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Anything difficult isn't worth doing.

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Dunno if you are being sarcastic or not, but that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm a junior, and I'm taking grad level classes right now. But if a prof. wrote me a note like that, I would just drop the class. Just rubs me the wrong way, not much else to say.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Exactly.

There are lots of different profs, and lots of different opportunities. Theres no reason to pidgeonhole yourself into one bad class.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Why be a prick if you don't have to? That's my question.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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Why be a prick if you don't have to? That's my question.

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Well, my point is, you have to let the student know their work is certainly sub-par, but have to do it in a non-condescending matter. His second sentence combined with the dear and very sincerely, sound a bit condescending.

But maybe you're right- you should just let poor work slide by in college and not be a prick, because once they work in the real world, their bosses will handle them with kid gloves too.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Is the student a freshman? A lot of times students have a hard time adjusting to being away from home from the first time and also trying to do well in school. The lack of effort might just be a side-effect of that.

Maybe there were extenuating circumstances and, for whatever reason, he couldn't put enough effort into this particular assignment. Who knows? Other times people slack off because they do not want to put in effort in something they do not understand and fail, so they just do really minimal effort to avoid failure. They fail but at least they didn't try and fail. Maybe he just thought the assignment was stupid so didn't bother with it. It could be anything. I'd let the first one go, and if he came back slacking on the next one, send him an email telling him that you noticed he wasn't doing too well on his problem sets and seeing if he would like to come see you in your office for a quick brush up. If he blows you off then don't bother any more-- it's not your job to hand hold him.

I think the tone of your note makes it so there is sort of a rift between you and the student and will probably make him resent you. He will be unlikely to admit he needs help if you take that tone with him. Really, who cares if he fails or doesn't come to class or doesn't try at all. It doesn't affect anyone except him. No need to sort of harsh on him. Just let him know you noticed and are willing to help him. If he doesn't take the life preserver you throw him then who cares, let him drown.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Are my choices between "[censored] all over him" and "let it slide?" These choices suck.

I think the best possible tone here is to be "kidding on the square" - laid-back, yet serious and to the point. In that spirit, I think Jason's on the right track, though I'm uncomfortable with his bouquet of hearts.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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Why be a prick if you don't have to? That's my question.

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Well, my point is, you have to let the student know their work is certainly sub-par, but have to do it in a non-condescending matter. His second sentence combined with the dear and very sincerely, sound a bit condescending.

But maybe you're right- you should just let poor work slide by in college and not be a prick, because once they work in the real world, their bosses will handle them with kid gloves too.

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Yeah, hello, I think giving a D- is enough hint that the work is subpar.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I'd feel very discouraged if I got such a note and I'd drop the class if I could.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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But maybe you're right- you should just let poor work slide by in college and not be a prick, because once they work in the real world, their bosses will handle them with kid gloves too.

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Grades speak louder than words.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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Grades speak louder than words.

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If they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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Grades speak louder than words.

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If they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.

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Or maybe you are just wrong?

That's kinda like me saying (hypothetically) "Abortion is wrong" and you saying "If it was, we wouldn't be having this debate".

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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Grades speak louder than words.

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If they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.

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Or maybe you are just wrong?

That's kinda like me saying (hypothetically) "Abortion is wrong" and you saying "If it was, we wouldn't be having this debate".

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Since everyone is focused on his words and not the grade, your analogy seems interesting.

Perhaps I am wrong- no one needs a teacher's written perspective on your work except the grade.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Thanks for the comments so far. To make a few things clear.

I am the individual writing the note, not the student receiving the note. I was never in this position as a student and don't know how'd I'd react to what I wrote.

This is an extremely serious course for 3rd and 4th year students.

I really appreciate your comments concerning the tone and content of what I wanted to tell this student but I could use a few more suggestions as to what I could do, if anything, to help this student.

For those curious, this is an undergraduate course in complex analysis. We will study from an advanced perspective the theory of analytic functions of a single complex variable.

Thanks again. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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For those curious, this is an undergraduate course in complex analysis. We will study from an advanced perspective the theory of analytic functions of a single complex variable.

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Very cool stuff. Enjoyed it much when I took it last year. Btw, this is for high enough lvl people that I think a note is unnecessary, and that if someone managed to somehow get through whatever prereqs this class has (should at least have taken multivariable and some real analysis, right?) then they can go [censored] themselves if they are unable to determine what level of work will result in satisfactory (from their POV) grade.

I'm a bit confused, to be honest, as to why you would even think to do this. Is it not clear when the student gets his problem set and half the problems are wrong that he is not working to expectations? Or is it a problem of the students proofs/work not being rigorous/detailed enough?

If the latter, I think what would be a better play is just to come in to class and explain to the whole class that this is a high lvl course and that a high lvl of rigour is expected from the students. Perhaps walk them through one random problem from the problem set. That should be all. No need to hold hands, this student is an adult.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I'm a bit confused, to be honest, as to why you would even think to do this. Is it not clear when the student gets his problem set and half the problems are wrong that he is not working to expectations? Or is it a problem of the students proofs/work not being rigorous/detailed enough?

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I wanted to communicate with the student about this because I'm naively idealistic about students about learning and I care about what I do and as a result care for my students. The problem with this student's solution is that he treated the assignment as if it was from some lower-division calculus course rather than an upper-division course.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I was never in this position as a student and don't know how'd I'd react to what I wrote.

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This was an interesting hypothetical for me, too. One thing I mentioned in my post that rory did as well was that you don't want to foster resentment - rather than setting yourself up as an adversary, you're trying to encourage your student while offering your help. I think the first note you posted might not have the desired effect.

I think chances are pretty good that offering your help will get the student to try harder on his own. If the student doesn't show any interest in improving, then it may well be time to start using the language in your original post. I'd also suggest that if/when you do use that language, you do it either in person or over email rather than writing it on the homework. I think the harsher message is one that benefits from the possibility of a dialogue with the student, and one's more likely to happen if you give him an easy chance to respond. If he gets the harsher message written on his homework, I think he's less likely to contact you than he might be to respond to an email.

This of course all depends on the student, and how capable he's going to be in motivating himself. He may just come to your office hours to ask "So, what's the answer for #1? Ok, how about #2?" (On a side note, it amazed me how many people tried this when I was tutoring. Even worse, I knew they were doing it because it'd worked for them in the past. I haven't taught in three years and thinking about it still annoys me.) But good luck with it.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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FYI - Jason is the teacher. He's asking if it's OK to give a student this note (see the XOXO - Jason, at the end of his letter).

I still wouldn't write it like that. It's phrased a bit harsh.

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i think it's perfect. especially since it's likely a math class. math, physics.. same thing,. boom, straight to the point. no BS.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

You might want to PM John Cole, as I am not sure if he reads OOT. He is a college prof and might have some insight for you.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I'd be pretty pleased to receive a note like this. I feel teachers aren't really harsh enough, I think I should be intelligent enough to do any work that they set me and if they're trying to spare my feelings I wish they wouldn't. I think it would be quite motivating if someone was as honest as this in a note, I wouldn't feel insulted or take it personally and I would make the effort to improve in the next assignment.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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This is an extremely serious course for 3rd and 4th year students.


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This is a really key point.

If this was a entry level class, I would tell jason to make his note all nice and friendly. This class is Serious Bunisness (tm) and I think a nice too the point note is exactly what's called for.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I'm a bit confused, to be honest, as to why you would even think to do this. Is it not clear when the student gets his problem set and half the problems are wrong that he is not working to expectations? Or is it a problem of the students proofs/work not being rigorous/detailed enough?

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I wanted to communicate with the student about this because I'm naively idealistic about students about learning and I care about what I do and as a result care for my students. The problem with this student's solution is that he treated the assignment as if it was from some lower-division calculus course rather than an upper-division course.

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I think you should have arranged a meeting to discuss your concerns in person. If the student doesn't want to improve after that, there is not much else you can do.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

It is integral that you link him to this thread at the end of the year.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I think the note is fine, but could use a few words of encouragement.

I remember the exact wording to a comment on an orgo test in first year college. I performed poorly and I believe I scored below the mean. Anyway, the teacher wrote:

Keep trying, Robert!

I read that and was like, wtf? You want to see trying? I'll [censored] dominate this next test of yours. I used that comment as motivation for the next test. I treated it like an insult, even though it clearly wasn't intended that way. I think it helps motivate me to do better if I hold a grudge.

Scored the second highest grade in the class on the next test.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

Since you state that the course is in his field of study, I'm assuming that it's a more advanced course and not some freshman intro type class. the tone sounds reasonable to me. you could recommend a tutor or office hours, but that could be coddling. you could also include a McDonalds application for motivation/to provide options.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I'm a bit confused, to be honest, as to why you would even think to do this. Is it not clear when the student gets his problem set and half the problems are wrong that he is not working to expectations? Or is it a problem of the students proofs/work not being rigorous/detailed enough?

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I wanted to communicate with the student about this because I'm naively idealistic about students about learning and I care about what I do and as a result care for my students. The problem with this student's solution is that he treated the assignment as if it was from some lower-division calculus course rather than an upper-division course.

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I think you did the right thing. Your dedication to the students is very impressive and I think that taking the time to give this person an honest assessment will help him in the future. In an upper-division course there is no need for hand holding and soothing words. Senior students may get complacemnt and this type of feedback won't derail their academic career.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I had a test in Freshman year of College about Frederick Douglas and all those losers, and I didn't read any of hte books or study at all. I thought this was gonna be like HS where you could make sh** up.

Anyway, the ESSAY test was rough for me and I got it back with a comment from the professor that simply said: "GROAN."

I thought this was hysterical, and I use this term to this day, 8 years after the event occured. I still don't know anything about Freddy D. though.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

I decided to not write the student a note and instead planned to talk to him today. True to fashion, he didn't even bother to attend this morning.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I decided to not write the student a note and instead planned to talk to him today. True to fashion, he didn't even bother to attend this morning.

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This is what I would have suggested. Talking in person always weighs heavier on someone's mind. That being said, since he didn't show, seriously, fvck him. Maybe try once more to meet, maybe try the note, but don't waste too much time. Your job as a teacher is to affect the students that want to be affected. Also, banging undergrads.

Re: A quick question for college students about encouragment
 

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I decided to not write the student a note and instead planned to talk to him today. True to fashion, he didn't even bother to attend this morning.

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you're making me feel guilty at my lack of effort as a student (when I was a student)