Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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Anyone see this article? Pretty interesting stuff. There is no such thing as race. White skin is just a genetic mutation. What are the implications for this discovery?

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Does it explain why white men cant jump?

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or dance?

RB

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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black people have faster mussle twitch fibers than white people.

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This is correct, especially with descendants of West Africa. You generally don't see East African descendants doing windmill dunks.

This Is Totally False!
 

The intelligent designer created man and the races about 8000 years ago. Genetic mutations and evolution is just a theory.

Re: This Is Totally False!
 

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The intelligent designer created man and the races about 8000 years ago. Genetic mutations and evolution is just a theory.

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http://www.toreigeland.com/theoldbar...a/strawman.jpg

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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black people have faster mussle twitch fibers than white people.

[/ QUOTE ]I hope you aren't trying to defend the biological notion of race. It's true that some people with dark skin genotypes also have faster muscle twitch fibers. However, it is not related to their skin color. Alleles are inherited independently and there has been interbreeding among populations since before global changes allowed some populations to move north and develop lighter skin. This means that depending on what criteria you use to split humans into races, you will end up with drastically different results. If you do it by skin color (or other adaptations to being close to the equator), you end up with something totally different than if you did it by blood type (which puts Swedish populations as the same race as some African populations, and other African populations the same race as Italians and Greeks). Scientists tried very hard to split people up into biologically defined races for a long time, and draw conclusions about people based on things like skin color, but found it utterly impossible. Any introductory level textbook will go into this much more in-detail. Unless you live in Kansas.

Edited to add that you can't attribute the dominance of black athletes to genes. There is much, much more variation within a population than among populations. The primary reason there are more black athletes is because with the economic and educational opportunities presented to them, focusing on sports, and then defaulting to, say, the military is often the best choice. This is why you're recently seeing a lot of white Europeans (from poorer countries) lately in the NBA for example.

Re: This Is Totally False!
 

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The intelligent designer created man and the races about 8000 years ago. Genetic mutations and evolution is just a theory.

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http://www.toreigeland.com/theoldbar...a/strawman.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]It's not a strawman argument when by all accounts the majority of Americans think someone created us in our present form.

http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

Re: This Is Totally False!
 

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It's not a strawman argument when by all accounts the majority of Americans think someone created us in our present form.

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Genetic mutation, as far as I know, is not contested all that much. We can observe mutation. Even micro-evolution can be observed. That makes his statment a strawman.

Re: This Is Totally False!
 

. Some scientists suggest that lighter skin offered a strong survival advantage for people who migrated out of Africa by boosting their levels of bone-strengthening vitamin D; others have posited that its novelty and showiness simply made it more attractive to those seeking mates.

Where the white women at?

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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I hope you aren't trying to defend the biological notion of race. It's true that some people with dark skin genotypes also have faster muscle twitch fibers. However, it is not related to their skin color

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Then is it fair to say "Geography?" Based on what part of the world your ancestors are from, we have some different physical abilities. Is that a fair statement?

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

Yes, that's fair, but you have to be careful what physical characteristics you're talking about (don't forget all those black African pygmies), and be sure to not include any behavioral characteristics.

Instead of races scientists use clines. However you still can't make speculations about one trait based solely on the existence of another trait. Geographical cline maps for even skin color are pretty surprising. There is a correlation between nearness to the equator and skin color, but it's not absolute. For example, Eastern native Americans had lighter skin than Western Native Americans.

Re: This Is Totally False!
 

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. Some scientists suggest that lighter skin offered a strong survival advantage for people who migrated out of Africa by boosting their levels of bone-strengthening vitamin D; others have posited that its novelty and showiness simply made it more attractive to those seeking mates.

Where the white women at?

[/ QUOTE ]Those are only 2 of like 9 reasons white skin may have developed in some populations.

White skin produces more vitamin D which is needed where there is less sunlight, melanin also is more energy-expensive, dark skin provides resistance to UV radiation (sunburned babies are no good), many of the alleles that contribute to light skin also contribute to light-colored eyes, which can see better in darker environments, there's sexual selection, a weak theory that darker skin is better for jungle environments (camouflage), and a couple more that I forget. I think dark skin dissipates heat better too, but I don't remember exactly.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

The color of ones skin has nothing to do with their athletic ability or else in the summer when Im tanned up I would be able to jump higher and run faster. With that said, of course blacks on avg. are better athletes then whites and I cant believe anyone would dismiss that or argue otherwise. How you keep all the baggage of race out of this is not to compare whites to blacks but rather blacks to asians, and no one in their right mind would not agree that blacks are physically superior to asians, especially considering that the avg American female is taller then the avg Japanes man. Also the World Health Organization distributes larger size condoms to African countries then European and then Asian counties. Why?? The only reason their are any white professional athletes is because blacks only make up about 12% of the American population, if they made up 40%, their would be no whitey. The reason people still try and argue that their arent any physical differences between the races is because once you open that door, youre now able to pose the same question regarding intellect, etc.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

Read more.

You're not talking about athletic superiority- you're talking about height; a polygenetic and highly variable trait which is inherited independently of skin color.

It is true that warmer climates prefer people who have higher body mass to surface ratio and longer appendages to give off heat, and the inverse to preserve heat in cold climates. More often than not, people living in warmer climates are also dark-skinned, but there are many populations which are an exception to the rule (again, refer to the large African pygmie populations); one trait does not indicate the other and again there is more variation within populations than between populations. This explains the penis thing; populations from colder climates have shorter thicker everything; including penises. It doesn't make them athletically superior; it just makes them taller on average. But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

IQ has already been studied. When education, environment, socio-economic status etc. are controlled for there is no difference between populations in IQ.

Again, alleles are inherited independently of each other, and there has been interbreeding between populations of [censored] sapiens since we emerged as a species. That means just because you know one phenotype of a person (say, their skin color) that does not give you any indication about any other phenotype they have. This is scientific fact. It is not something you can argue with based on what seems obvious to your own eyes.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age

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So all it takes is dedication to be a great athlete? A sports publication recently listed their 2005 high school football All-American team. Out of the 22 first teamers pictured, 19 were black. Considering that the overwhelming majority of high school football players in the country are white, this is quite amazing.

Your theory that blacks dominate because they are driven to do so just doesn't hold. Every white kid in Texas and Pennsylvania and many other places grow up dreaming to play in the NFL or at least at a major college. Being a football star makes one a God in many of these places. Those kids work year around at it and are extremely driven. Why don't they make it in the NFL, while the black kids do, if all it takes it dedication to the sport?

There are 64 starting cornerbacks in the NFL..all are black. I have been following the NFL for about 15 years, the only white starting cornerback I can remember is Jason Sehorn. Do you really believe there isn't a biological reason behind that? Do coaches discriminate against white cornerbacks for some reason? Or could it be that white players don't have the physical tools to play that position?

Denial mode
 

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I didn't mean to overgeneralize like that. It's common knowledge among some people and totally unkown to others.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't worry. There are enough people, here and elsewhere, who do NOT know this, while others are in just plain DENIAL mmmmmmode, that it bears telling and re-telling about it.

Sorry, the keyboard got stuck a wee bit.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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So all it takes is dedication to be a great athlete? A sports publication recently listed their 2005 high school football All-American team. Out of the 22 first teamers pictured, 19 were black. Considering that the overwhelming majority of high school football players in the country are white, this is quite amazing.

Your theory that blacks dominate because they are driven to do so just doesn't hold. Every white kid in Texas and Pennsylvania and many other places grow up dreaming to play in the NFL or at least at a major college. Being a football star makes one a God in many of these places. Those kids work year around at it and are extremely driven. Why don't they make it in the NFL, while the black kids do, if all it takes it dedication to the sport?

There are 64 starting cornerbacks in the NFL..all are black. I have been following the NFL for about 15 years, the only white starting cornerback I can remember is Jason Sehorn. Do you really believe there isn't a biological reason behind that? Do coaches discriminate against white cornerbacks for some reason? Or could it be that white players don't have the physical tools to play that position?

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ESPN's Scoop Jackson on the 'African Americans are genetically superior athletes theory' and why it's possibly coded bigotry (written in response to Jeff Kent's comments about Milton Bradley not hustling this past baseball season):

"We call it the gym rat theory. It insinuates that blacks are more naturally gifted athletes and the game comes easier to us, and because of that "theory" we don't practice as hard, we don't have to put in the same amount of hours, we don't have to do as much work.

And I'm not saying that you said that, I'm just telling you that black athletes have had to deal with that forever, since sports began. They said it about Joe Louis in relation to Rocky Marciano, they said it about Willie Mays in relation to Joe DiMaggio, they said it about Oscar Robertson in relation to Jerry West, Magic to Bird, they're saying it about Serena Williams in relation to Lindsay Davenport.

"Naturally gifted" to us Jeff … man, that's code for: We don't have to work as hard at the game as you all because of our inbred talent."

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

There's also another piece of basic knowledge most people ignore. Humans are xenophobes by nature. Fearing the unknown is an ingrained survival machanism. Thus its not a simple task to overcome the manifetations of that nature simply by exposing the facts. On a evolutionary scale, we're not all that far removed from our hunter-getherer ancestors wandering the Savannahs.

It's frustrating, but some things just take time and effort. I recall once saying to a friend that I thought intermarriage was a good thing because eventually racial distinctions would disappear. He shrugged and said that wouldn't change anything. People would just find other reasons to hate each other.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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"We call it the gym rat theory. It insinuates that blacks are more naturally gifted athletes and the game comes easier to us, and because of that "theory" we don't practice as hard, we don't have to put in the same amount of hours, we don't have to do as much work.

And I'm not saying that you said that, I'm just telling you that black athletes have had to deal with that forever, since sports began. They said it about Joe Louis in relation to Rocky Marciano, they said it about Willie Mays in relation to Joe DiMaggio, they said it about Oscar Robertson in relation to Jerry West, Magic to Bird, they're saying it about Serena Williams in relation to Lindsay Davenport.

"Naturally gifted" to us Jeff … man, that's code for: We don't have to work as hard at the game as you all because of our inbred talent."

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I remember the late EPSN and SI writer Ralph Wiley making the same point on a few occasions. I understand the concern, and it should go without saying, that is takes incredible hard work and practice to be great at anything. Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Lebron James etc..worked very hard to be good at their sport. They didn't sit around eating donuts all day.

However, there are certain physical skills that you really cannot get better at through hard work. I could work at increasing my jumping ability 16 hours a day for 10 years, and I doubt I could even touch the rim. These natural atheltic skills are basically something you are born with. I seriously doubt Vince Carter and LeBron James were able to hit their head on the rim through hard work. They were born with that skill. When it comes to shooting, dribbling, passing etc...that is acquired through practice and hard work.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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However, there are certain physical skills that you really cannot get better at through hard work. I could work at increasing my jumping ability 16 hours a day for 10 years, and I doubt I could even touch the rim. These natural atheltic skills are basically something you are born with. I seriously doubt Vince Carter and LeBron James were able to hit their head on the rim through hard work. They were born with that skill. When it comes to shooting, dribbling, passing etc...that is acquired through practice and hard work.

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Vince Carter and Lebron James are 6'6 and 6'8, respectively. I assume most people that tall could eventually train themselves into being able to dunk a basketball. One reason why you or I (I'm 6'0 feet tall) couldn't train for 10 years and dunk a basketball is because we're signifcantly shorter than the athletes you've mentioned -- although I don't doubt that after serious training, most people couldn't drastically improve their vertical leap.

In other words, I don't think Vince and LeBron were born with that skill -- I think it is a product of hard work, exercise, training, practice, etc.

I generally assume there's an equal distribution of 6'8 males who can dunk a basketball among races (although I have no proof) -- if I'm wrong, and there is some statistically significant difference, I'm sure we can come up with some non-genetic reasons as to why.

If the claim is that African Americans are generally taller than white people, I think Grey does a pretty good job explaining why that is.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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Vince Carter and Lebron James are 6'6 and 6'8, respectively. I assume most people that tall could eventually train themselves into being able to dunk a basketball. One reason why you or I (I'm 6'0 feet tall) couldn't train for 10 years and dunk a basketball is because we're signifcantly shorter than the athletes you've mentioned -- although I don't doubt that after serious training, most people couldn't drastically improve their vertical leap.

In other words, I don't think Vince and LeBron were born with that skill -- I think it is a product of hard work, exercise, training, practice, etc.

I generally assume there's an equal distribution of 6'8 males who can dunk a basketball among races (although I have no proof) -- if I'm wrong, and there is some statistically significant difference, I'm sure we can come up with some non-genetic reasons as to why.

If the claim is that African Americans are generally taller than white people, I think Grey does a pretty good job explaining why that is.

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No, the argument is not that black people are taller than white people. I am not sure where to go with this arugment If you saying that athletic ability is all a product of hard work and not biology.

Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough? Are you saying that there simply wasn't one white guy in the entire country who worked hard at being a good CB?

I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot. There are certain athletic abilities that you are born with, and cannot be improved by a significant amount. Are you aware of one person who cound't jump a lick when they were 16, then they practiced for a few years and as a result, they could do windmill dunks?

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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No, the argument is not that black people are taller than white people. I am not sure where to go with this arugment If you saying that athletic ability is all a product of hard work and not biology.

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I'm not saying that athletic ability isn't the product of biology; just that, I've seen no biological evidence to suggest that black people have more athletic ability than do whites, short of exactly what Grey cited -- people from historically warm weather climates have longer appendages and are built less stoutly to survive warmer temperatures, whereas people from colder climates developed shorter, stockier bodiers to survive cold weather.

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Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough?

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No. As Grey mentioned, there could be many reasons.

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Are you saying that there simply wasn't one white guy in the entire country who worked hard at being a good CB?

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I'm sure there are plenty of white CBs who worked hard at being good. So no, I'm not saying that.

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I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot.

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Why do you have a hard time believing that?

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There are certain athletic abilities that you are born with, and cannot be improved by a significant amount. Are you aware of one person who cound't jump a lick when they were 16, then they practiced for a few years and as a result, they could do windmill dunks?

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I'm not aware of anyone who can do a windmill dunk that isn't playing basketball at a high level. So to answer your question, I don't know anyone who DOES jump extremely high, plays basketball regularly, and CAN do a windmill dunk -- except for professionals.

I'm not a personal trainer, but I'm somewhat certain that the vertical leap is a skill that can improved with training.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot.



Why do you have a hard time believing that?

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Because I have never heard of anybody who couldn't jump a lick, then through practicing, starting jumping 4 feet off the ground.



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Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough?



No. As Grey mentioned, there could be many reasons

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Please give me some of these reasons. NFL and major college football coaches keep their jobs by winning. They obviously want the best players on the field. The reason that all major college and NFL cornerbacks are black is because the coaches think they are the best. I am guessing you agree that these coaches don't discriminate against white cornerbacks. So if it not discrimination, I would like a few of these reasons why there are no white cornerbacks..not to mention no NFL team has a starting white tailback. In fact, the last good white tailback I can remember was John Riggins, and that was about 20 years ago.

So combine cornerbacks and starting tailbacks in the NFL. That is around 100 guys. If I am not mistaken, they are all black. I would like to hear the non-biology explaination for that.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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So combine cornerbacks and starting tailbacks in the NFL. That is around 100 guys. If I am not mistaken, they are all black. I would like to hear the non-biology explaination for that.

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Sure:

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But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

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Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

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Yes, the Bill Gates could have been an NBA star if he had dedicated himself to it explaination. You really believe that a lot of corporate executives could play in the NBA if they worked at it?

As I pointed out in a previous response, there are places in this country where football is king. If you are good at football you are a God. The kids in those places (overwhelmingly white communities) work year around at football. They have as much desire to play in the NFL as anybody can have, yet they don't make it. Why not, if all it takes is desire and work?

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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Yes, the Bill Gates could have been an NBA star if he had dedicated himself to it explaination. You really believe that a lot of corporate executives could play in the NBA if they worked at it?

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Not necessarily corporate executives; and I suppose it's a cute way to frame it (choosing the notoriously scrawny/nerdy looking Gates as an example of your typical executive).

But sure, there are, of course, some people in all walks of life who could have been professional athletes had they dedicated themselves. Basketball is a bit of an outlier, as most people of average height are at a great disadvantage to those who are taller.

What Grey is arguing (and I agree with) is that young black people have a stronger impetus to dedicate themselves to athletics than do white people -- again, for reasons that I think are many and varied.

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As I pointed out in a previous response, there are places in this country where football is king. If you are good at football you are a God. The kids in those places (overwhelmingly white communities) work year around at football. They have as much desire to play in the NFL as anybody can have, yet they don't make it. Why not, if all it takes is desire and work?

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If Friday Night Lights (the book, not the movie) is any indication, top notch college programs will tend to shy away from recruiting kids from the 'Football is God' type communities because they feel those kids' potential have been fully-tapped; as there is so much focus on football, and the coaching standards are inevitably higher, many college coaches feel those kids are already playing at their highest possible level and have nothing more to offer than what they're currently displaying.

Also, an intense community focus on football doesn't necessarily mean the kids are playing, practicing, or training any harder than kids where high school football isn't at the heart of the community.

Secondly, Friday Night Lights also detailed (quite clearly, in my mind) that urban areas in Texas (downtown Dallas, for instance) are quite full of school districts that have large minority (in many cases, overwhelming minority) populations that have the same kind of intense focus on high school football as the more rural communities of Texas do (like Odessa).

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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If Friday Night Lights (the book, not the movie) is any indication, top notch college programs will tend to shy away from recruiting kids from the 'Football is God' type communities because they feel those kids' potential has been fully-tapped; as there is so much focus on football, and the coaching standards are inevitably higher, many college coaches feel those kids are already playing at their highest possible level and have nothing more to offer than what they're currently displaying.

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Exactly. You are correct. The reason college coaches shy away from these kids is because they are as good as they are ever going to be at this stage. Why? Because they generally lack overall atheltic ability. They are good now because of hard work, and that can only take you so far. To use a sports term, they have reached their "ceiling."
That is why the coaches go to black areas and find kids who haven't reached their ceiling yet.

This whole argument reminds me of a funny scene from the movie "Airplane." When Ted Striker is telling the story of his days in the Peace Corps in Africa, he mentions how he taught the natives to play basketball. Then they show these guys doing acrobatic dunks etc... and Striker credits this to "advanced American teaching techniques." If you and Grey are correct, Striker was correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

I just want to jump in here about the vertical leap thing. I have a friend who's 5 feet 9 inches and can dunk a basketball. The proportion of your arm lenghts (a little less than half half your body height for the average person) in addition to your body height give taller people a significant advantage in being able to dunk a basketball. However, there is much to be said about the proportion of your vertical leap to your body height. A person who's six feet six inches tall has a much easier time with dunking a basketball but their legs don't need to be as proportionally strong to acheive this feat.

Conclusion: Just raise the damn hoop to 12 feet so you have to practice things like shooting which requires much more training

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

The truth is out there, if you can handle the truth that is:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

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For example, Eastern native Americans had lighter skin than Western Native Americans.

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That really doesn't surprise me. Lattitude isn't the only factor affecting sun exposure. Altitude and climate are important factors. Western North America generally has drier climate (fewer cloudy days) and higher altitude than eastern North America (except for coastal regions). I know I would never have survied in Colorado with my fish-belly white northern European skin without clothing and sunscreen. I would probably have died of infected third degree sunburn. Also, I think temperature may be a factor. In cold climates, people have to wear clothing or furs to keep warm, and aren't exposing much skin to the sun. In warm climates, they can go naked, or nearly so.

Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin
 

As I stated earlier in this thread, dont compare blacks to whites, to much baggage associated with race that could easily dissway a very valid question, discussion. Instead compare blacks to asians, and with a straight face say that blacks are not athletically, physic8lly superior to Asians. If your argument is that the reason American sports are dominated by blacks is because they work harder then their white counterparts, then thats absurd and I dare anyone to suggest the opposite is true in the corporate world..you might be handed your walking papers. Go to any playground, the number of 5'9'' black guys that can dunk a basket ball compared to white, asians of that size isnt even close.

Ill do you one better, pick the top colleges in America, blind fold yourself and throw a dart at said schools...and then look at the track and field athletes and get back to me...I find it amazing that a country of over 1 billion(China) doesnt dominate the track and field world, especially considering we all know how dedicated the chinese are when pursing something of value and the Gold metal holds alot of weight over there. The problem here is that many people(with tears streaming down their cheeks, wanting, believeing that we are in fact all the same) are not believeing whats right in front of them. yes our similarities are far far greater then our differences...but there are differences.