Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He NEVER ever pays me off with 99 or 88 here.

LGPG

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

And that has nothing to do with the fact that you never, ever, ever bluff on the river?

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

"Feel free to bet on and pay off the Black guy. I would probably never check this against you, btw."

irrelevant because i would never let myself get to the river with only JJ in a hand where you 3 bet preflop and kept betting on the flop and turn.

it's great you play in such rancid games that you can narrow down the other weak tight player's hands so perfectly and make value checks like this. unfortunately the rest of us play in games where our opponents (even the solid, black ones) are so loose they can have a wide variety of holdings here, so, for us, not value betting KK here is unthinkable.

LBPLS

Re: IGNORANT
 

Yessss....I frequent the 30-60 one weekend/month, and have come to know the regulars, and every time I'm there it seems she's there....small world. Well, not really. lol.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

You really need to change your handle to The Black Guy

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Done deal.

Regards,
Andy

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

LMAO!!!!

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are right that QQ is probably the only hand I would pay you off with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

but your range is higher here than qq and jj. you could have ajh or kjh. also, if the babe often follows thru on the turn with aq and ak then gives a free sd then you could have a10 or 88, 99.

you are saying you fold these to the river bet? cool. they are likely good folds against this type of player and i would likely do the same. pokerbabe mentions that she knows she only gets paid off by the qq here.

so my question is, hey babe, why the hell dont you bluff the riv with ak and aq?

you have cultivated this image for so long now, its time to start stealing a few pots here and there.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Hey Robyn,
fwiw, on the internet it's a bet. in most rl situations, it's a bet. for certain players, given their local knowledge and real life reads, it's a check. I think that's what a lot of posters are missing.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 6 combos of QQ and 3 combos of JJ he can have. Are you assuming he's going to be folding QQ >50% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

you make a very important point and its unfortunate it got lost in the thread. its also surprising no one else has mentioned this.

to go further, if she is paying off the cr its a breakeven scenario. if she can fold its an easy value bet.

babe says: [ QUOTE ]
5). By checking the river I get to see if my read was correct. And it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont you know your read is correct if you get checkraised or called? you put him on qq, if he calls your read is correct and you make 6 bets. you put him on jj and he checkraises and you fold and lose 3 bets.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Babe, I assume that you saved $120 if he had JJ because you would have called a checkraise, no?

That said, your saving $60 or $120 here by checking in spots such as these is probably costing you a lot more than that on other occasions where your hand is good.

You should have bet the river.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

i am often accused here of being weak tight, which i do not agree.

i bet the river here without hesitation. no show of strength by the opponent so far, it is a clear value bet.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Babe,

I think you ought to try the following for a week and see what happens:

1. Every time a solid playing black, yellow or white guy raises preflop, just smoothcall his raise with KK and AA and show aggression postflop instead.

On the other hand, if a not so solid playing brown guy raises (when he is in your town starting tommorow), you should call all bets to the river and then fold...heh

2. Always bet missed hands on the river when headsup (even AK or AQ which is normally a check and showdown hand for most of us on the river). It sounds like guys in your game are willing to fold to your river bets even if they have an overpair to the board because you always show them a big overpair when they do call.

Howard Bliss Says
 

Erika, Howard Bliss asked me to tell you that this was a value bet on the river.

Re: Howard Bliss Says
 

who's erika?

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

"you have cultivated this image"

no she didnt. she just doesnt know how to play any other way. she plays weak tight because she is weak tight. she hasnt been purposefully creating an image she can now exploit by playing differently. she's not capable of that. the very best players are.

CULTIVATE: to foster the growth of c : to improve by labor, care, or study :

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

I don't think it's accurate to say she doesn't know how to play any other way. She plays in a way with which she's comfortable. She's comfortable with it because she wins and because it suits her personality. It's not possible that she doesn't know how to play any differently. Everyone knows how to play differently.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

So a respected poster (deservedly so) posts this:

"5 handed 20/40. mediocre type limps utg, i raise on the button with AKo. Flop comes KQ8. He check calls. Turn 8 he check calls. River 9. He checks. He's exactly Jack Ten. I know it. I feel it. He wants to check-raise. But I have a good two pair. It's 5 handed. I have to bet, dammit. So I do. He check-raises. Damn, I hand read well - he does have JT and the voice in my head tells me to fold. I've been listening to lately and it's been working well. Why didn't I listen this time and check? Now what. Every part of my body is telling me to fold. It's gotta be the right play. But then my ego takes over and I want to prove myself right. I call. He shows JT and drags the pot. I hope I never do that again."

He "knows" he is beat but bets and calls a raise. Nobody says much, except that he should have trusted his spidey sense.

Now Pokerbabe says basically the same thing, except that she saved $120 instead of losing $80.

And apparently it's a crime against humanity.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now Pokerbabe says basically the same thing, except that she saved $120 instead of losing $80.

[/ QUOTE ]

given the hand ranges that will call or cr this river, pokerbabe breaks even by betting and calling the cr.

6 ways to have qq and gain a bet. 3 ways to have jj and cr to lose 2bets. now if she can fold to the cr......

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, as Gabe noted, I am not the pokerbabe at the bike. That person took my "handle" and is trying to pass herself off as THE original PokerBabe [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The real PokerBabe checks this river against this SOLID playing Black guy for the following reasons.


1). He does NOT have a RBP (really big pair) like KK or AA as he doesn't 4 bet preflop which he would do about 100% of the time. So, we have to narrow his possible holdings down from there.

2), There is a 10 on the flop and he can BEAT a 10 since he called the flop. He would check raise the turn with a set of 10s here about 100% of the time, so when he just calls the turn, I am pretty sure he has an overpair less than KK.

3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

4). His check calling pattern throughout the hand works perfectly for his plan to induce when he spikes on the river. He is now darn sure I have an overpair to the board and the innoculous looking Jack makes it very likely I will bet my overpair on the river.

5). By checking the river I get to see if my read was correct. And it was. Fortunately for me, it's probable that he will now always bet his hand on the river against me when he is leading.

LGPG,
Babe [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than you not discounting a flopped draw since he didn't raise the flop, I can buy in with this read. To a point.

Basically, you're saying he married his overpair on the turn when he'd get rid of 88 or 99 by then as it is unlikely that you'd have a 10 or any piece of this flop.

The fact he had an overpair clouded his mind enough to call for his 2 outer.

That and his raising standards in that situation preflop are pretty tight. Meaning he wouldn't raise with 88 or 99 in that spot preflop. Otherwise, those 2 hands should be factored in in the decision to bet the river since, again, he knows you likely have no piece of that flop given your preflop 3 bet. (unless your preflop 3 betting standards have changed from what is known on here)

b

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So a respected poster (deservedly so) posts this:

"5 handed 20/40. mediocre type limps utg, i raise on the button with AKo. Flop comes KQ8. He check calls. Turn 8 he check calls. River 9. He checks. He's exactly Jack Ten. I know it. I feel it. He wants to check-raise. But I have a good two pair. It's 5 handed. I have to bet, dammit. So I do. He check-raises. Damn, I hand read well - he does have JT and the voice in my head tells me to fold. I've been listening to lately and it's been working well. Why didn't I listen this time and check? Now what. Every part of my body is telling me to fold. It's gotta be the right play. But then my ego takes over and I want to prove myself right. I call. He shows JT and drags the pot. I hope I never do that again."

He "knows" he is beat but bets and calls a raise. Nobody says much, except that he should have trusted his spidey sense.

Now Pokerbabe says basically the same thing, except that she saved $120 instead of losing $80.

And apparently it's a crime against humanity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Babes description was different. Just saying 'solid playing black guy' isn't enough to warrant the river check as a solid player can be raising preflop and play to the river with a little wider range than just QQ or JJ. If she mentioned he had tight raising standards no matter the position or whatever weakie limps in prior, that's can paint a little clearer picture.

She also made no mention of her 'spidey sense' during the hand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I will say though, that live you can get that read easier just by how they check call during the streets. She also made no mention of that.



Basically her initial post is :

Solid player in CO raises a limper, I 3 bet on the button with KK.

Flop comes 10 high 2-tone. check, check, I bet, 2 calls.

Blank on turn: check, check, bet, limper folds, solid guy calls

River J: check behind.

Pretty bare bones really.

b

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Agreed, not knowing the people involved, and from the description given, I think this is a bet on the river.

Factor in other factors - reads on the players - specific info from being there - some other tidbits - sure, this could be a case for checking.

But not from what is given, I don't think.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

But is she saying the same thing as BK?

I didn't read her post as an example of her spidey sense going off and letting her hands follow what her brain is telling her (which is what BK didn't do). Rather, I read it as an illustration that generally speaking, she and this particular opponent of hers know each other's game so well that it can only mean that they are not being in the least bit deceptive against each other.

I mean, for Babe to know that this guy can only have JJ or QQ means that she also must know that he knows with certainty that she can only have QQ, KK, or AA (if she bets the river).

To me, that means that Babe is being too predictable and indeed that is what her opponent has said in this thread.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case and he never bluff checkraises, why on earth would you not bet here and fold to a raise?

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are right that QQ is probably the only hand I would pay you off with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against such a predictable player, why are you calling with QQ here? Sounds like she can ONLY have TT-AA (if even that wide) when she bets the turn, and by the river, you lose to them all except tie w/ QQ.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Andy,

First off, you are being results oriented. Against this opponent's range and possible actions, sure in this instance she saved a bet, but she is not saving bets with this play, she is losing money with it.

As for the other post you cited, this was a case of a guy paying a bet to see what the other guy had to satisfy his ego and show that he was right. He admits that's what he was doing, and from a poker EV standpoint, a very bad move.

The reason the reactions are different is because pokerbabe is positioning her action as a good play, which it wasn't.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

dude i ripped him up on that thread, but only on the semantics of titling the post as he did. he deserves credit though for having the guts to post it knowing it was poorly played. this forum is best when it's part tutorial, part confessional.

one problem is the babe always defend her posts to the death even when nearly everyone says she's wrong.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Hi Andy,

I also find it remarkable that my good plays are always discounted by many posters on this site.

Fortunately, I am not looking for approval.

LGPG

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

skp,

No, I don't pay off a check raise on the river to this guy. Nope, uh uh....no way.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Hi El D,

Thanks for the input.

Both you and sincity suggested this alternate play on the river. I could have bet/folded to a ch/raise but then I don't see his hand.

LGPG

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

Hi skp

You are correct that knowing opponents means they are often "predictable". That makes it easy for me to check when I am behind and to bet when I am ahead. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Oh, wait....this is too easy isn't it?

Hey, maybe we can rendevous for lunch at the Indian restaurant and we can discuss the babe's play over some curry. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

LBPLS [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

And this would be "look bad play loose and stupid"? LOL. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

The reason the reactions are different is because pokerbabe is positioning her action as a good play, which it wasn't.

Hi El D,

I am indeed positioning this as a play for this hand vs. this particular opponent. Over an infinite number of trials, checking this board on the river would be an error. In this particular case, checking seems right to me.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

for certain players, given their local knowledge and real life reads, it's a check. I think that's what a lot of posters are missing.


Hi M2d,

Yes, it's clear that some people missed the point on this one.

LGPG [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

i am often accused here of being weak tight, which i do not agree.

Amulet,
Even people more famous than the Babe have been accused of being weak-tight. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

And that has nothing to do with the fact that you never, ever, ever bluff on the river?

Really? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

lol. i feel comfortable with both my play and the posts i make (despite that i often disagree with many others here.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular case, checking seems right to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would you say that if he rolled QQ? You and your opponent explain why it was that given your respective styles, he was going to have JJ or QQ here. If that is the case, the fact that he had JJ in this particular case does not make checking more correct. Understanding that concept is important if you care about maximizing your winrate in this game.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am often accused here of being weak tight, which i do not agree.

Amulet,
Even people more famous than the Babe have been accused of being weak-tight. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your insistence on the 3rd person is extremely disturbing. That is all.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
skp,

No, I don't pay off a check raise on the river to this guy. Nope, uh uh....no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes checking an egregious mistake. 6>3.

Re: Weak Tight you say Mikel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He NEVER ever pays me off with 99 or 88 here.

LGPG

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense to you babe, but that is why your style is sub-optimal. do you know how hard it is to win when you have to have an overpair against his overpair. and he is just calling? granted, you probably play live, in vegas or la. where their are just absolutely horrible players (in those mid-limit games), who never catch on.

Good check and all.....