Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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turn: Ace hits and he keeps betting - shows he's not scared of that ace, no one here advocates a check-fold? I think you're behind here against a weak ace and have two outs. Either fold or c/r attempting to get him to fold.

river: I put him on an ace - based on your line, looks like a flush draw, so I think he will check behind. I say push hoping for a call

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Wrong, that ace had an impact. He bets $25 into a huge pot here. He's either a) afraid that ace made hero's hand improve, or b) he's being tricky and hoping that hero wanted to checkraise....it's really a decision between those 2 things. The problem with raising is that it could be option b instead of option a, and if it is option a, we are ahead anyway and don't want to necessarily run him off. The only hand that villain could possibly have with option a that we want to fold is KK or f a flush draw.

I didn't get to voice my opinion on the turn, but I favor a call I guess....hate to raise here and be faced with a push, but I also hate to give a cheap card to someone with a flush draw...however I offered him a free card and he charged himself $25 so I'm not sure he's drawing here...I think he might have flopped a set but because of our preflop reraise he thinks we have AAA.

River - Given this action I'd probably go for the checkraise all in....I don't think he's got a flush.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

Here's my thoughts again on the hand as a whole, as well as results.

Preflop: Villain has shown in the past that he is willing to break tempo (i.e. the hand where I raised PF and he bet into me on the flop with air and kept betting, as well as some other hands where I raised flop and he bet the turn). This means that even if I do raise him here, he might try to take it away later postflop and since I'd like to play a large pot here (obviously flop dependent), I may as well start building it now.

Flop: His raise could mean many things. He might put me on AK (or just big cards in general). He might also have a set, two pair, KK, AA, whatever. He could also just be testing the waters with a mediocre hand or even have pretty good equity against me. In any case, I think ~$30 going into this flop is the perfect amount for a turn checkraise all in, because the pot will be $80 and our stack $100 on the turn, meaning if he bets his normal 1/3-1/2 pot bet, he will have great odds to call with just about any legitamite hand he holds, a range of which I am way ahead.

Turn: Ok, bad card to check raise all in. A lead here sort of sucks because if he does push all in I could be in a really rough spot. At this point I change my plan to a check/call because at this point I'm (a) not quite as far ahead of his hands and (b) less likely to get a call from a hand I'm behind if I do checkraise. Also, this villain really doesn't seem sofisticated enough to minraise flop and check behind on a draw (or at least I'm hoping he isn't).

River: Dunno if this river helped or hurt but I'm obviously willing to get it all in at this point, because I beat anything but a flush or flopped straight (which I think is unlikely, this guy was raising with big cards mostly). At this point a check is fairly likely to induce a bluff from complete air or a value bet from hands that beat me, but I do believe he will check behind here with one or two pair and maybe even a smaller set (can't be sure there). I should have probably check/raising here, but ended up pushing. He called with A8o.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

i think check-raise all-in on the river is best

you are showing big ol weakness checking both turn/river, really looks like youre trying to get to showdown "cheap" by check-calling the whole way down

as you said, villain has a tendency to bluff too, and not only that, he will def bet out with any A, 2-pair, set, etc., and the pot is so big no matter what he bets, he calls your check-raise

i think if you push you let him off easy with a weaker pair

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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I call. this will probably be a hu pot anyway and I rather keep it small since I'll be oop with a hand i want to see a showdown with.

PS: but this is one of those spots where I'd like to be convinced I'm wrong :|



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We like to play big pots with our big hands preflop.

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you have to be kidding, why on earth will you want to play a big pot oop with a one pair hand against this guy?

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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you have to be kidding, why on earth will you want to play a big pot oop with a one pair hand against this guy?


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A) The fact that he bluffs a lot tells me this would be fantastic.

B) Same rational would justify not raising AA here either.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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you have to be kidding, why on earth will you want to play a big pot oop with a one pair hand against this guy?

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one pair is a pretty strong hand pre-flop [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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you have to be kidding, why on earth will you want to play a big pot oop with a one pair hand against this guy?


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A) The fact that he bluffs a lot tells me this would be fantastic.

B) Same rational would justify not raising AA here either.

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

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can you read what you just typed, i mean, is the answer not clear here?

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

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can you read what you just typed, i mean, is the answer not clear here?

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I usually hate the "there are better spots" argument, but in this case I'll open an exception

EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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As long as he has you on AK, that turn is g00t

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You think so? I thought I was still likely ahead on the flop, I think this turn totally impedes my ability to get value out of my hand. I just called the turn, which I'm still not sure about. I was planning on check raising all in on anything but a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or an A, so I sort of froze up here.

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I did't say that he is ahead on the flop, most LAGs min raise with a wide range of hands for free card in future street. Before the flop you are ahead I think, but I think the turn card is very bad for you cause most reraising range is KK-JJ is now behind Ax. You certainly could have AK type of hand, his bet is like a half value bet (to get called by underpair) half probing bet(to see if you have AK).

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

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can you read what you just typed, i mean, is the answer not clear here?

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I usually hate the "there are better spots" argument, but in this case I'll open an exception

EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

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Fallen,
I think you are losing out on a great deal of value if aren't able to play aggressively in these situations with the 3rd strongest hand heads up preflop against a tricky aggro opponent. Against a weak-tight player, I might agree with you, but you need to be able to make a player like villain pay when you have the chance.

And the chance won't always be with AA on the button.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

I like a push here. If he raise flop with flush draw, he likely take a free card on turn unless he has Ax [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on a flush draw+TP combo on turn. But with those odds, you cannot fold set here if he pushes. On the other hand, he might very well check his ace especially if his kicker is small. A push is smaller than the potk, but it looks like a desperate bluff with air or flush and I expect he payoff with ace.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

I like a check here. If he has a strong Ace he is going to bet it hoping you make crying call (turn call indicates you probably would call a smallish bet). If he was bluffing the turn, he probably isn't going to pay you unless he bluffs again. And of course if he made his flush you don't want him putting you all in after you bet strong.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

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can you read what you just typed, i mean, is the answer not clear here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually hate the "there are better spots" argument, but in this case I'll open an exception

EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

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Fallen,
I think you are losing out on a great deal of value if aren't able to play aggressively in these situations with the 3rd strongest hand heads up preflop against a tricky aggro opponent. Against a weak-tight player, I might agree with you, but you need to be able to make a player like villain pay when you have the chance.

And the chance won't always be with AA on the button.

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Why is everyone being so pf centered? :| I'm hoping to play big pots with big post flop hands, not AA,KK,QQ or any other specific starting hand.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

[/ QUOTE ]

can you read what you just typed, i mean, is the answer not clear here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually hate the "there are better spots" argument, but in this case I'll open an exception

EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

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Fallen,
I think you are losing out on a great deal of value if aren't able to play aggressively in these situations with the 3rd strongest hand heads up preflop against a tricky aggro opponent. Against a weak-tight player, I might agree with you, but you need to be able to make a player like villain pay when you have the chance.

And the chance won't always be with AA on the button.

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Why is everyone being so pf centered? :| I'm hoping to play big pots with big post flop hands, not AA,KK,QQ or any other specific starting hand.

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Hopefully you can get all of your opponents to cooperate with you on that.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

[/ QUOTE ]

can you read what you just typed, i mean, is the answer not clear here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually hate the "there are better spots" argument, but in this case I'll open an exception

EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

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Fallen,
I think you are losing out on a great deal of value if aren't able to play aggressively in these situations with the 3rd strongest hand heads up preflop against a tricky aggro opponent. Against a weak-tight player, I might agree with you, but you need to be able to make a player like villain pay when you have the chance.

And the chance won't always be with AA on the button.

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Why is everyone being so pf centered? :| I'm hoping to play big pots with big post flop hands, not AA,KK,QQ or any other specific starting hand.

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Hopefully you can get all of your opponents to cooperate with you on that.

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So we think we're much better than villain, what do we do to prove it? Get stacked on an overpair :| I hate it

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

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EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

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So we think we're much better than villain, what do we do to prove it? Get stacked on an overpair :| I hate it

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Fallen I know you probably think everyone is picking on you, but lets think about this logically. We wouldn't play an overpair against this guy if we limped AA preflop or something and then got tons of action post flop.....then yeah if we are getting a ton of action he could be crazy and have some random two pair hand. But in this hand we built a large pot preflop,thereby forcing a large pot on this guy with most likely bad cards....now we've got him tied to this large pot because it's so big he doesn't want to get away from his hand. That's the point....you build the pot early and his range of hands he'll get agressive with increases DRAMATICALLY. These are exactly the situations that you'd look to play a big pot, against a loose aggressive opponent with a large pot built preflop...it's hard to misplay your hand at that point. If you aren't looking to play large pots with AA against villains that will bluff three streets or stay in with second pair then you are probably losing value.

As for this point

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Why is everyone being so pf centered? :| I'm hoping to play big pots with big post flop hands, not AA,KK,QQ or any other specific starting hand.

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Do you not realize that if you get it all in preflop with AA you are a significant favorite over any other hand...why in the hell would you not want to play a big pot preflop with AA? You need to really think about the way you are playing I think based on these comments.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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Well, if he bluffs a lot and plays big pots with crappy hands all the time why are you so eager to play a big pot with an overpair oop?

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EDIT: just to clarify something here: I'm saying he should fold on an ace high flop or something idiotic like that, I'm not even sure not reraising pf is the best thing to do, I'm just saying QQ is not the kind of hand with wich I hope to play a big pot, if it happens against this guy...well, you're probably ahead, so ok, but as a default plan I'm not sure I like it.

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So we think we're much better than villain, what do we do to prove it? Get stacked on an overpair :| I hate it

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Fallen I know you probably think everyone is picking on you, but lets think about this logically. We wouldn't play an overpair against this guy if we limped AA preflop or something and then got tons of action post flop.....then yeah if we are getting a ton of action he could be crazy and have some random two pair hand. But in this hand we built a large pot preflop,thereby forcing a large pot on this guy with most likely bad cards....now we've got him tied to this large pot because it's so big he doesn't want to get away from his hand. That's the point....you build the pot early and his range of hands he'll get agressive with increases DRAMATICALLY. These are exactly the situations that you'd look to play a big pot, against a loose aggressive opponent with a large pot built preflop...it's hard to misplay your hand at that point. If you aren't looking to play large pots with AA against villains that will bluff three streets or stay in with second pair then you are probably losing value.

As for this point

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Why is everyone being so pf centered? :| I'm hoping to play big pots with big post flop hands, not AA,KK,QQ or any other specific starting hand.

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Do you not realize that if you get it all in preflop with AA you are a significant favorite over any other hand...why in the hell would you not want to play a big pot preflop with AA? You need to really think about the way you are playing I think based on these comments.

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wtf, you think I'm such an idiot that I don't know I'm a huge favourite all-in pf with AA?
You're not getting all-in pf, you're not even putting a significant portion of your stack in the pot pf.

If the guy is a maniac that will bluff all three streets than check calling is the way to go. "Postflop he bets a lot, but doesn't often bet big. He will also bluff three streets no problem. He generally seems to respect my raises though", if the guy respects your raises why are you putting yourselft in a situation where the guy will most likely not do his usual 3barrel bluffing but he will stack you if he has something since you can't fold safely knowing you're beat.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

ok you are right, everyone else on the forum is wrong.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

It seems to me that the issue isn't whether the pot is big or small but *when* it gets big. Your big pair's equity is highest pf and decreases steadily as you go from flop to river (over n hands where n is large - not talking about specific boards here). This means you want to play fast pf and fast on the flop, your aim being to take the pot down without seeing later streets. Trying to keep the pot small pf and on the flop just gives drawing hands and lower pairs the implied odds they need to stay with you. Pot control becomes more important on the turn if the hand lasts that long, as your one pair hand is less likely to be good when all five cards are out.

Obviously all this is highly dependant on specific opponents, flop texture etc. etc. and doesn't allow for making plays but this seems logical to me. I'm open to persuasion though as I don't think I've quite got the hang of this pot control business...

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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It seems to me that the issue isn't whether the pot is big or small but *when* it gets big. Your big pair's equity is highest pf and decreases steadily as you go from flop to river (over n hands where n is large - not talking about specific boards here). This means you want to play fast pf and fast on the flop, your aim being to take the pot down without seeing later streets. Trying to keep the pot small pf and on the flop just gives drawing hands and lower pairs the implied odds they need to stay with you. Pot control becomes more important on the turn if the hand lasts that long, as your one pair hand is less likely to be good when all five cards are out.

Obviously all this is highly dependant on specific opponents, flop texture etc. etc. and doesn't allow for making plays but this seems logical to me. I'm open to persuasion though as I don't think I've quite got the hang of this pot control business...

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Well, I like that line of thought except that with a hand like QQ against a maniac that can bet all three streets and have any hand at showdown you have to start controling the size of the pot from the start.

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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It seems to me that the issue isn't whether the pot is big or small but *when* it gets big. Your big pair's equity is highest pf and decreases steadily as you go from flop to river (over n hands where n is large - not talking about specific boards here). This means you want to play fast pf and fast on the flop, your aim being to take the pot down without seeing later streets. Trying to keep the pot small pf and on the flop just gives drawing hands and lower pairs the implied odds they need to stay with you. Pot control becomes more important on the turn if the hand lasts that long, as your one pair hand is less likely to be good when all five cards are out.

Obviously all this is highly dependant on specific opponents, flop texture etc. etc. and doesn't allow for making plays but this seems logical to me. I'm open to persuasion though as I don't think I've quite got the hang of this pot control business...

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Well, I like that line of thought except that with a hand like QQ against a maniac that can bet all three streets and have any hand at showdown you have to start controling the size of the pot from the start.

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Or just bet/raise for value on all streets?

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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It seems to me that the issue isn't whether the pot is big or small but *when* it gets big. Your big pair's equity is highest pf and decreases steadily as you go from flop to river (over n hands where n is large - not talking about specific boards here). This means you want to play fast pf and fast on the flop, your aim being to take the pot down without seeing later streets. Trying to keep the pot small pf and on the flop just gives drawing hands and lower pairs the implied odds they need to stay with you. Pot control becomes more important on the turn if the hand lasts that long, as your one pair hand is less likely to be good when all five cards are out.

Obviously all this is highly dependant on specific opponents, flop texture etc. etc. and doesn't allow for making plays but this seems logical to me. I'm open to persuasion though as I don't think I've quite got the hang of this pot control business...

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Well, I like that line of thought except that with a hand like QQ against a maniac that can bet all three streets and have any hand at showdown you have to start controling the size of the pot from the start.

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Or just bet/raise for value on all streets?

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the op never said the guy is a calling station, just a maniac with a tendency to bluff every street

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

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After hero kicks himself for not open pushing the turn, he has to check call. By pushing this river, he gets no better hand to fold so he needs to just get to a showdown. At least checking allows villain the chance to bluff.

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Why would you open push the turn? So he can fold his 99, and call with his AJ?

Re: Choose your own adventure.
 

I dont think we have a huge reason to believe villain has an ace. The ace killed our action on the turn, and villain only bet 1/3 pot. I think villains most likely holdings here are something like JJ or air, MAYBE a flush. If we lead then I think he folds everything but the flush. I dont see villain having two pair with something like A7, but I suppose he could have a set with 77. I think a good bit of the time here villain checks behind with a pair like 1010, but leading will get us no money.

I like check call, or even check raise all in, but I think if we c/r all in the only hand that pays us off is 77, and maybe a strangely played AQ or something.

I think we should check this river to induce a bluff, as for raising a potential bet he makes... why?