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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Additionally I believe the T&C's note material that is obscene or pornagraphic - is this right? [/ QUOTE ] One can interpret the T&C in all sorts of different ways. They are always purposely written that way. "While using 2+2 website, you may not post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, profane, or otherwise objectionable information of any kind" The part at the end could apply to pretty much anything. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I can't believe we are still having this discussion.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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I can't believe we are still having this discussion. [/ QUOTE ] Well, it has morphed into a more general discussion about whether real swastikas should be allowed at all. The original issue about the avatar seems to be dead. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
1) I would be all for removing.. hell BANNING anyone with a swastika avatar. (I think the same about the confederate flag.)
2) That does not look like a swastika. Sorry. The arms and legs don't match. It's the cool little cactus dude from Final Fantasy 6 (released as FF3 in the U.S. -- damn I'm a dork). This is coming from a guy who recommended the permanent banning of one of his own higher quality strategy regulars for making racist comments in OOT. I have ZERO tolerance for racists -- nuke em on site. Sorry, but if you see a swastika there you are looking too hard. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
I was interested to read your "different" comments, and I passed a copy of them to a Jewish friend in London, UK, for his opinion. (He is not a poker-player, nor a member of this forum.) I set it out below, for your interest:
Let's make the hypothetical assumption that at some point the Christian Cross is adopted as a symbol and included on the regalia of a particularly unpleasant totalitarian party. Would that be grounds to ban the future display of the Cross? No. By the same token the swastika. This week I attended my daughter's end of year school play which featured scenes of indian life and dancing. The girls wore headresses decorated with the swastika. This, remember, in an area of London that is home to half of the UK's Jewish population. Of course, none of this considers why on your forum that symbol has been selected as an avatar. Is the member merely being intentionally offensive to the point of sociopathy and is he claiming 'freedom of speech' as his defence. This doesn't necessarily wash. There are of the order of 30 exceptions to the right of free speech, perhaps the most famous being the undesirability of someone maliciously shouting "Fire" in a crowded public place where people might be crushed to death as a consequence. If it's plain that the member is indeed a sociopath there is no fundamental right to have his sociopathy catered for. Similarly if his use of the symbol is a declaration that he is among you and believes that the philosophy of German National Socialism and its attendant horrors could profitably (in any sense) be revived, then, in a forum where people gather for relaxation, the moderators might decide that the guy's a wind-up merchant and boot him. On a forum where people meet for relaxation there is no obligation to be confronted by loathsome political philosophies. That can be done elsewhere. Of course, the fact that some people find some particular philosophies loathsome doesn't disqualify those philosophies from the population at large, but in a forum where people gather for the exchange of anything but political discourse it's not unreasonable to decide that logging on and looking at a symbol which to most Europeans of middle age and above at least represents an horrific folk memory is not conducive to the "quiet enjoyment" of that facility. If on the other hand he is, naively or otherwise, using the symbol to be representative of something other than the bestial horrors witnessed between 1933 and 1945 then it might be allowed to stand. The most memorable ruling I have seen on this sort of case is that made in another forum a few years back in which was stated, vis a vis the idiocy of another member and the decision to ban him, "We all like cats, but we don't want cats to [censored] on our front room carpet." |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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1) I would be all for removing.. hell BANNING anyone with a swastika avatar. (I think the same about the confederate flag.) [/ QUOTE ] Out of curiosity, why exactly the Confederate flag? GoT |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
i can't speak for greg, but i suspect it has something to do with tom wopat never realizing his potential as a thespian
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
i can't speak for greg, but i suspect it has something to do with tom wopat never realizing his potential as a thespian [/ QUOTE ] I have no clue who Tom Wopat is, but I'm guessing it's unrelated and a jab at me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] While I personally kind of have an eye-rolling mentality toward people who sport the Confederate flag, considering it a justiable bannable offense seems absolutely absurd to me. GoT |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
you're not even curious who he is then? weird
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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I think it would be best it Mat just chimed in with his opinion. [/ QUOTE ] I had to think about this for some time before chiming in. I think it depends on the type of cactus. For instance, I believe that there is a cactus out there with a pretty bad attitude, some people call it the jumping cactus. And if someone had that cactus as as an avatar, and it went out jumping at people and blinding them and so forth, that would definitely not be acceptable. In all seriousness, this site is the property of Two Plus Two (ie. the authors) They care about selling books. Avatars really don't matter THAT MUCH to anyone do they? A real swatiska isn't allowed if I get complaints, neither is a cross a cock a cucumber or a dildo. Someone just asked me to censor the word nigger. I'm about to do just that. Does anybody here really think that particular tidbit of censorship will hurt business? If a bunch of peoople pm me wanting the ability to call people niggers, I'd be afraid. But I would also have to consider their request. I'm just trying to make a point. I love the fact that we have you guys caring enough about moderation to delve into these philosophical issues in our "star chamber," but I think in cases like these, it's sort of a waste of time. Maybe. I've grown perfectly comfortable with being wrong. Thank you, sincerely. Mat |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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I think it depends on the type of cactus. For instance, I believe that there is a cactus out there with a pretty bad attitude [/ QUOTE ] Awesome! |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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I have no clue who Tom Wopat is [/ QUOTE ] He's just a good ol' boy, never meanin' no harm. Beats all you ever saw, been in trouble with the law, since the day he was born. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
http://www.dromar.com/conf/lpps30033.jpg
This is what I meant. [ QUOTE ] While I personally kind of have an eye-rolling mentality toward people who sport the Confederate flag, considering it a justiable bannable offense seems absolutely absurd to me. [/ QUOTE ] I can understand this, but coming from Mississippi I am accutely aware of what it means. This was not a popular flag until 1954 Brown decision in support of segregation (and to a lesser extent with the 1948 candidacy of Strom Thurmond). Basically, it is a hate symbol. It does not "really" stand for state's rights... people learned in Southern politics know what most (Southern) people mean when they "state's rights" anyhow, and that "heritage not hate" is a lie. I do agree it might not be legitmately bannable, and my own (admittedly strong) opinions regarding this particular symbol are probably in the minority here. It's really not a problem anyhow (thankfully). I am also a free speech guy. There is a movement here on the campus of LSU to ban this flag: http://www.epier.com/store/outpostfl...ges/RebLSU.jpg which is waved by (white) fans and students at LSU sporting events. It's kind of a big deal on campus -- there have been repeated marches. You should see the white "fans" yelling at the black protestors... calling them n*ggers and such. It's really disgusting. The thing is, as much as I sympathize with the feelings of the (mostly) black protestors, they are wrong. It's a freedom of speech issue. LSU is a public university, and as such should allow the public display any symbol (even the swastika). (2p2 on the other hand is a private entity and can censor much more liberally.) That was long winded I know -- you are probably not a Southerner though, and it's hard to fully understand this issue if you are not. "Heritage not hate" is a *wink-wink* kinda thing. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Basically, it is a hate symbol. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] you are probably not a Southerner though, and it's hard to fully understand this issue if you are not. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is pretty much what it boils down to. You think it's purely a hate issue and nothing else; others do not. In the same way, some people may view a symbol such as the Christian cross as purely a hate symbol, while others will not. Same goes with the current US flag. The majority of Americans will usually side on one side or the other on these issues, but that has necessarily no bearing whatsoever on which side is "right" or "wrong". Say I was someone from the mid 13th century who happened to be born in Syria. Could I be faulted if I stated that the symbol of the cross was purely a symbol based on hate and the desire to spill innocent blood? No. I would have every reason to say that and to believe it with every bone in me. Now say I was an orphan who was dying of malnutrion on the streets of London during the same time period, and was taken in by a loving Christian family because of their faith and loved and raised as their own. Would I be wrong to think that the symbol of the religion that in essence saved my life was nothing but good and praise-worthy? No, that would obviously be a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. So which of these people's beliefs would be in the wrong? The point is I'm not saying either you or either of them are necessarily right or wrong, but rather you should all realize that yours is a matter purely of opinion and nothing more. So ask yourself honestly, do you really think we should make the Conderate flag bannable? Or even better, do you really think the Confederate flag is bad or evil in some way? More specifically, is it necessarily any more or less of those characteristics than the Christian cross, the American flag, or the Wiscosin Highway Patrol logo? In the end, I really hope we are all intelligent enough to realize that just because we (individually) may feel very strongly one way or another about symbols, political or otherwise, does not mean our opinion is anything more than just that - an opinion, nor does it make the symbols themselves nor the people who may feel differently about them than we do, evil or bad in any way. And not only for the sake of our moderating decisions here, but in applying the same objecctive and logical thinking in our everyday lives. GoT |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Good points. I did concede though that I would not be banning anyone for using the confederate flag. Do I think it's bannable? Probably not. Is a swastika? Probably.
The idea that symbols mean different things to different people is certainly valid for most symbols -- and to some extent or another all symbols. But many, to some degree or another have some universal meaning that does not encompass of of thier meaning. To right wing fruitcakes in Montana or Alberta, a confederate flag likely means white nationalism. In Mississippi or Alabama it (usually) means pride in being a white Southerner who hates the blackies on welfare. These ideas are not identical, but similar, and have some overlap. [ QUOTE ] do you really think the Confederate flag is bad or evil in some way? [/ QUOTE ] That is really not the issue. (I could go into some speel about my secular humanist philosophy, but I won't, which I sure you are grateful for. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])) The issue is whether it is generally offensive. Your overall point is slightly reductionist. "It's just a symbol right?" Okay, well are the letters f, u, c, and k offensive? Of course not, but when I put them together, oh [censored] look that happens! My point: it's not the symbol itself which is offensive but the meaning, that is the intent behind it. A symbol is, after all, only some colors and shapes. Inherently it can't hurt anyone. But try telling that to a black LSU player who runs into the endzone scoring a touchdown to see a bunch of rednecks waving a purple and gold rebel flag around. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? Has a party or organization represented by the Confderate flag helped anyone lately? I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. I'm talking about people who have reason to believe that the Confederate flag and what it represents have improved their quality of life (like your orphan example). I can't think of any at the moment.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Well, now I have no idea what to think. Here's what just popped up in OOT:
http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/5418/norton1el.jpg |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? Has a party or organization represented by the Confderate flag helped anyone lately? I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. I'm talking about people who have reason to believe that the Confederate flag and what it represents have improved their quality of life (like your orphan example). I can't think of any at the moment. [/ QUOTE ] There is an interesting correlary to this. Yr point is totally valid, and while I don't think there is any reasonable group of people that truly thinks of the confederate flad as having a positive connotation, many whites in the South love to portray this myth of a Condederate golden age. States had rights, political sovereignty was properly decentralized, and people were happy. Slavery was not as bad as people say, and most masters were good to thier slaves and took care of them in this rural agrarian paternalistic system which stressed values and morals. I am not lying about this -- I am totally serious. There are some people that actually spout this sh*t. Of course, I equate them to Haulocaust deniers (who uncoincidentally hate Jews for the most part). |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
What post was it in? Still up? Any comments from others?
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Found it. Well Wacki, you definitely started something with your original post. Not sure if that was completely wise.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Found it. Well Wacki, you definitely started something with your original post. Not sure if that was completely wise. [/ QUOTE ] can you link me to this thread? Barron |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Here you go.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Well, now I have no idea what to think. Here's what just popped up in OOT: http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/5418/norton1el.jpg [/ QUOTE ] Posted by Eurotrash. This is somewhat of an important point. I think it's a damn funny joke at the expense of this thread. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Well, now I have no idea what to think. Here's what just popped up in OOT: http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/5418/norton1el.jpg [/ QUOTE ] n00b |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? [/ QUOTE ] There are millions. All you have to do is travel south of the Mason-Dixon line. [ QUOTE ] I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good example of genuine racism. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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[ QUOTE ] Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? [/ QUOTE ] There are millions. All you have to do is travel south of the Mason-Dixon line. [/ QUOTE ] Ugh, if you couldn't tell the point of this question was regarding experience and not just traditional opinions passed down through environment then you're an idiot. If you could tell that and you just felt like being an idiot then you succeeded. Since I'm sure proving me wrong would be the best thing since the last Harry Potter book for you, why don't you make up some absurd example where the Confederate flag (not someone else's opinion of the Confederate flag) has had a positive impact on someone's life. Maybe one time a guy's shirt caught on fire and his buddy, thinking on his feet, quickly extinguished it using a Confederate flag. Then that guy, the burned one, for the rest of his life, would feel rightfully indebted to all that the flag represented. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good example of genuine racism. [/ QUOTE ] Dyanasty, stop being an idiot. How is this racist? What race am I being prejudice towards? White people? I'm white. I don't think this about myself; I don't even HAVE a sister! If ANYTHING it's geographist. But that's not a word, so it can't be that. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Here you go. [/ QUOTE ] i think its funny that i posted this suggestion in the mod forum and now its actually being graphically linked that cactus guy look slike swastika Barron |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good example of genuine racism. [/ QUOTE ] How is this racist? What race am I being prejudice towards? White people? I'm white. I don't think this about myself; I don't even HAVE a sister! If ANYTHING it's geographist. But that's not a word, so it can't be that. [/ QUOTE ] A quick search found this definition of racism by the ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Descrimination) “Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.” The bolded parts apply particularly well to your statement. It was plainly obvious that you were using a racial sterotype of an American Southerner and using it to denegrate those who would disagree with you. Your complete inability to discuss something on this forum without insulting others still stuns me. You have a remarkable lack of maturity. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
Like I've said, you weren't the first to bring up that specific avatar. Others obviously have the same linkage.
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't think people that like it because it's a fun thing to wave around in their backyard while their dad bangs their sister count in this instance. [/ QUOTE ] This is a good example of genuine racism. [/ QUOTE ] How is this racist? What race am I being prejudice towards? White people? I'm white. I don't think this about myself; I don't even HAVE a sister! If ANYTHING it's geographist. But that's not a word, so it can't be that. [/ QUOTE ] A quick search found this definition of racism by the ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Descrimination) “Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.” The bolded parts apply particularly well to your statement. It was plainly obvious that you were using a racial sterotype of an American Southerner and using it to denegrate those who would disagree with you. Your complete inability to discuss something on this forum without insulting others still stuns me. You have a remarkable lack of maturity. [/ QUOTE ] I am the same race, color, decent and nationality as the people I was talking about. Your definition proves that you're completely wrong, so thanks for looking that up. As for my lack of maturity, you'd think it would have stopped stunning you a while back since I've been aggressively open about how much I dislike you for months. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
whatever it's a business
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Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? [/ QUOTE ] http://inlandempirestrikesback.net/v...eral_Lee03.jpg |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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[ QUOTE ] Can you think of any living people for whom the Confederate flag has positive connotation? [/ QUOTE ] There are millions. All you have to do is travel south of the Mason-Dixon line. [/ QUOTE ] *Raises hand* Huh? My whole point is that it has a racist meaning to Southern whites who "fly it proud." However, if you concede that they see racism (hatting n*ggers) as a good thing (which they do) then yes, it does have a positive meaning to them. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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[ QUOTE ] Well, now I have no idea what to think. Here's what just popped up in OOT: http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/5418/norton1el.jpg [/ QUOTE ] n00b [/ QUOTE ] It's not that I thought Eurotrash was posting something racist. It's that there's now a lot more swastika association than I thought there was, especially after seeing that post. I couldn't see any swastika when Dcifr first posted this, but he's far from the only person who sees it, apparently. I'm still leaning towards just leaving the avatar be, and I saw the humor in the picture, but I see that the issue isn't as cut and dry as I thought. I'm just going to stay out of the Confederate Flag debate. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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Basically, it is a hate symbol. It does not "really" stand for state's rights... people learned in Southern politics know what most (Southern) people mean when they "state's rights" anyhow, and that "heritage not hate" is a lie. [/ QUOTE ] Considering it was on states flags till the politically correct crowd removed it in 2001, to a great uproar by those in Georgia, I call complete bullsh1t. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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I am the same race, color, decent and nationality as the people I was talking about. Your definition proves that you're completely wrong, so thanks for looking that up. [/ QUOTE ] The fact that you're the same race, olor, descent, and nationality does not prevent your statement from being racist. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
This conversation is retarded.
Recent mississippi flag http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...state_flag.png Recent georgia. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...GaFlag1956.gif And when I said old I mean 2001. But political correctness caused SC, GA, and many others to take their flags down or change them in this decade. Everyone I know from the south (outside of the internet) does not equate it with slavery or hate. |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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As for my lack of maturity, you'd think it would have stopped stunning you a while back since I've been aggressively open about how much I dislike you for months. [/ QUOTE ] I am not sure if it is a case of growing up but you really should show more respect to the other mods. We should all be trying to moderate these forums in a professional manner. I think this precludes getting into 'pissing matches' with other mods. Thank you, Jim Kuhn Catfish4u [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] |
Re: Avatar pushing the limits....
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[ QUOTE ] Here you go. [/ QUOTE ] i think its funny that i posted this suggestion in the mod forum and now its actually being graphically linked that cactus guy look slike swastika Barron [/ QUOTE ] I think it's funny that none of you get it. GoT |
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