Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

thru this long discussion has anyone been able to extract anything meaningful, or coherent, from the original post?

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to understand.

Do you believe Life is finite consciousness, and death is infinite unconsciousness?


[/ QUOTE ]

YES.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

Tried, but failed. I didn't take enough notes while forming my moral relativism. (oops, another cheap laugh)

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I want to understand.

Do you believe Life is finite consciousness, and death is infinite unconsciousness?


[/ QUOTE ]

YES.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great, we are on the same page.

We experience finite unconsciousness regularly, it's called "sleep" (exclude dreams for a moment) and we return to finite consciousness (life) when we wake up from this "sleep".

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

"Death's brother, Sleep." - Virgil

"Sleep, those little slices of death, how I loathe them." - Edgar Allan Poe

[/ QUOTE ]

All men are equal when they sleep, they care not what they look like, nor decisions they have made in their life before the sleep - some of which the consequences they will face when they wake up from it.

Here's a picture I drew to illustrate:

http://tinypic.com/eimpmr.jpg

Both Caesar and SDM do something in their finite consciousness, then they enter finite unconsciousness (represented by the black), then they reemerge to their finite consciousness with memory of who they are, and what they have done before entering finite unconsciousness. (ie- going to sleep)

Caesar remembers (from ante-sleep) the 10 virgins fondly and hopes to repeat the experience (post-sleep), while SDM knows a choice he made prior to going to sleep (ante-sleep) may well have bad consequences today. (post-sleep)

But in sleep, in this finite unconsciousness, both Caesar and SDM are equals. How they look, &amp; what they have done, all means nothing because both of them are deprived of consciousness - and with it identity and memory.

Therefore if Death is the great "infinite unconsciousness", in death both Caesar and SDM are the same - nothing. It matters not that SDM was a thief &amp; mere plebeian or that Caesar slept with 1000 virgins &amp; ruled a mighty empire because both now have no identity for themselves, no memory, &amp; no consciousness.

What they did only matters to the history books, to those still alive (finite consciousness) to read about what they with their lives (finite consciousness) while they had them.

But even the human who reads the book "Of Caesar &amp; SDM", will one day meet the great "infinite unconsciousness" like Caesar &amp; SDM, and if that human is the last human on earth then all human effort exists only on record for another life to find - if another life exists, and if that record exists.

Either way, Caesar, SDM, and the last human don't care, because they unable to care - for to care one needs consciousness, and in death there is no consciousness.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What they did only matters to the history books, to those still alive (finite consciousness) to read about what they with their lives (finite consciousness) while they had them.
But even the human who reads the book "Of Caesar &amp; SDM", will one day meet the great "infinite unconsciousness" like Caesar &amp; SDM, and if that human is the last human on earth then all human effort exists only on record for another life to find - if another life exists, and if that record exists.

Either way, Caesar, SDM, and the last human don't care, because they unable to care - for to care one needs consciousness, and in death there is no consciousness.


[/ QUOTE ]

SDM,

Whew. You are correct in your statement above. If the entire race ends and no-one finds any record of us then nothing will matter in the end. But what does that have to do with mattering while we are alive - and with the original post. The fact that in the ultimate end we may never matter is not enough reason for me to not have things matter to me now. I do not live in the future but the present. Once I die, and everyone who knew me dies, it will be as if I never existed (maybe I didn't). But, that does not influence me what-so-ever in everyday life (should it)?

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

So let me get this straight.... the OP wanted everyone to tell him why we think the way we do... but didnt want to have to defend his own beliefs, or give reasons for his inquiry in the first place.

wow, I wish the world worked this way.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So let me get this straight.... the OP wanted everyone to tell him why we think the way we do... but didnt want to have to defend his own beliefs, or give reasons for his inquiry in the first place.

wow, I wish the world worked this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it didn't work this way, what would we on the forum be doing in our spare time? And we wouldn't have made such good (sometimes) converstation and "friends".

RJT

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

If the OP isnt willing to defend his own beliefs or his inquiry in and of itself, it really doesnt lend itself to discussion.

It just seemed a really weird stance to take.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

You are indeed correct. Don't you also agree that the topic itself didn't really lend itself to discussion anyhoo?

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

SDM,

Whew. You are correct in your statement above. If the entire race ends and no-one finds any record of us then nothing will matter in the end. But what does that have to do with mattering while we are alive - and with the original post. The fact that in the ultimate end we may never matter is not enough reason for me to not have things matter to me now. I do not live in the future but the present. Once I die, and everyone who knew me dies, it will be as if I never existed (maybe I didn't). But, that does not influence me what-so-ever in everyday life (should it)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's how it applies:

In my illustration above, Caesar lived a life of great power, &amp; great pleasure, SDM lived a life of no power, &amp; little pleasure. Both interacted with the world around them and both at times helped and hurt others by their actions - yet they both end up in the same place in death, thus their actions in life are futile.

Caesar's life &amp; SDM's life, while both vastly different, could be described by that famous phrase "All roads lead to Rome", with "Rome" meaning death in this case.

Thus whether a Chicken lives free range or is couped up in battery cages means nothing, in the end the chicken will die, and will not remember whether it spent it's days in the sun roaming around freely, or whether it was confined to a claustrophic environment.

The same could be said of humans; In the end Barry Greenstein with his donations to charity to improve the lives of impoverished children and Hitler with his answer to the "Jewish Problem" both go that "never ending sleep" having no identity, &amp; no memory - equals in sleep, equals in death.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The same could be said of humans; In the end Barry Greenstein with his donations to charity to improve the lives of impoverished children and Hitler with his answer to the "Jewish Problem" both go that "never ending sleep" having no identity, &amp; no memory - equals in sleep, equals in death.



[/ QUOTE ]

But definitely NOT equals in life. Why do you insist that people live in the future and not in the present? Who cares what happens after we die? We should only be concerned with our life now and not worry about the fact we will all die and matter not.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
The same could be said of humans; In the end Barry Greenstein with his donations to charity to improve the lives of impoverished children and Hitler with his answer to the "Jewish Problem" both go that "never ending sleep" having no identity, &amp; no memory - equals in sleep, equals in death.



[/ QUOTE ]

But definitely NOT equals in life. Why do you insist that people live in the future and not in the present? Who cares what happens after we die? We should only be concerned with our life now and not worry about the fact we will all die and matter not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The destination directs the travel.

If one wanted to go to Andorra, they would fly to Barcelona, Spain and then catch a train to Andorra.

However if one wanted to go to Lisbon, Portugal; one would fly to Madrid, Spain and catch another plane to Lisbon airport.

Different destinations, different paths.

Caesar &amp; SDM had different paths, but ultimately faced the same destination - infinite unconsciousness, no memory, no identity.

Therefore one could argue the path you take before death is of no importance - all roads lead to "Rome" anyway. ("Rome" here being used to represent death - the "infinite unconsciousness")

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same could be said of humans; In the end Barry Greenstein with his donations to charity to improve the lives of impoverished children and Hitler with his answer to the "Jewish Problem" both go that "never ending sleep" having no identity, &amp; no memory - equals in sleep, equals in death.



[/ QUOTE ]

But definitely NOT equals in life. Why do you insist that people live in the future and not in the present? Who cares what happens after we die? We should only be concerned with our life now and not worry about the fact we will all die and matter not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The destination directs the travel.

If one wanted to go to Andorra, they would fly to Barcelona, Spain and then catch a train to Andorra.

However if one wanted to go to Lisbon, Portugal; one would fly to Madrid, Spain and catch another plane to Lisbon airport.

Different destinations, different paths.

Caesar &amp; SDM had different paths, but ultimately faced the same destination - infinite unconsciousness, no memory, no identity.

Therefore one could argue the path you take before death is of no importance - all roads lead to "Rome" anyway. ("Rome" here being used to represent death - the "infinite unconsciousness")

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, one could argue that the destination is of no importance- the journey is the only thing that "matters".

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

Or, one could argue that the destination is of no importance- the journey is the only thing that "matters".

[/ QUOTE ]

Matters to whom?

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same could be said of humans; In the end Barry Greenstein with his donations to charity to improve the lives of impoverished children and Hitler with his answer to the "Jewish Problem" both go that "never ending sleep" having no identity, &amp; no memory - equals in sleep, equals in death.



[/ QUOTE ]

But definitely NOT equals in life. Why do you insist that people live in the future and not in the present? Who cares what happens after we die? We should only be concerned with our life now and not worry about the fact we will all die and matter not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The destination directs the travel.

If one wanted to go to Andorra, they would fly to Barcelona, Spain and then catch a train to Andorra.

However if one wanted to go to Lisbon, Portugal; one would fly to Madrid, Spain and catch another plane to Lisbon airport.

Different destinations, different paths.

Caesar &amp; SDM had different paths, but ultimately faced the same destination - infinite unconsciousness, no memory, no identity.

Therefore one could argue the path you take before death is of no importance - all roads lead to "Rome" anyway. ("Rome" here being used to represent death - the "infinite unconsciousness")

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, one could argue that the destination is of no importance- the journey is the only thing that "matters".

[/ QUOTE ] Or, one could argue that the destination is of no importance- the journey is the only thing that "matters".

Very well put. Of course SDM will say 'matters to whom'. Matters to the people taking the journey and that is all that it needs to be important to.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Very well put. Of course SDM will say 'matters to whom'. Matters to the people taking the journey and that is all that it needs to be important to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can any journey be "wrong"? (despite it mattering to the person undertaking it)

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very well put. Of course SDM will say 'matters to whom'. Matters to the people taking the journey and that is all that it needs to be important to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can any journey be "wrong"? (despite it mattering to the person undertaking it)

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you define right and wrong? Are you in agreement with NotReady that there are no real morals without god (most people here disagree). I think it can turn out to be the 'wrong' journey after the fact. It may even be 'wrong' during the journey. And if it is 'wrong' enough you will end up in jail.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can any journey be "wrong"? (despite it mattering to the person undertaking it)


[/ QUOTE ]

You may know this already, but IMO no, because there is no "wrong".

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I think it can turn out to be the 'wrong' journey after the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Can any journey be "wrong"? (despite it mattering to the person undertaking it)

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you define right and wrong? Are you in agreement with NotReady that there are no real morals without god (most people here disagree). I think it can turn out to be the 'wrong' journey after the fact. It may even be 'wrong' during the journey. And if it is 'wrong' enough you will end up in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Wrong" is the wrong word. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

One's fellow travellers might send him to the final destination early if they are sufficiently motivated and powerful.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it can turn out to be the 'wrong' journey after the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ex. someone may spend much of their life (taking a journey)abusing alcohol or drugs. Then later on, they have a change of heart and realize they have gone down the 'wrong' path. There are individual rights and wrongs as well as societal rights and wrongs. Individuals probably change their ideas of right and wrong more often than does society. Most laws (codified right and wrong) change incrementally but an individual can have a completly different view of right and wrong at different points in their life. IE. compare a child's moral compass with that of an adult.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Ex. someone may spend much of their life (taking a journey)abusing alcohol or drugs. Then later on, they have a change of heart and realize they have gone down the 'wrong' path. There are individual rights and wrongs as well as societal rights and wrongs. Individuals probably change their ideas of right and wrong more often than does society. Most laws (codified right and wrong) change incrementally but an individual can have a completly different view of right and wrong at different points in their life. IE. compare a child's moral compass with that of an adult.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your point.

Are you saying that one should abide by the laws that govern them?

or

That all that matters in life is that an individual looks inside himself and is content with the path he has chosen? (even if it is in conflict with society's laws)

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ex. someone may spend much of their life (taking a journey)abusing alcohol or drugs. Then later on, they have a change of heart and realize they have gone down the 'wrong' path. There are individual rights and wrongs as well as societal rights and wrongs. Individuals probably change their ideas of right and wrong more often than does society. Most laws (codified right and wrong) change incrementally but an individual can have a completly different view of right and wrong at different points in their life. IE. compare a child's moral compass with that of an adult.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your point.

Are you saying that one should abide by the laws that govern them?

or

That all that matters in life is that an individual looks inside himself and is content with the path he has chosen? (even if it is in conflict with society's laws)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry you don't understand, thought it was pretty clear. I think it is important that you do what matters to yourself. Hopefully, though, what matters to you doesn't conflict with society or you may be contemplating your life from behind bars.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Sorry you don't understand, thought it was pretty clear. I think it is important that you do what matters to yourself. Hopefully, though, what matters to you doesn't conflict with society or you may be contemplating your life from behind bars.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Hitler? He remained "true" to himself, and led his society.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry you don't understand, thought it was pretty clear. I think it is important that you do what matters to yourself. Hopefully, though, what matters to you doesn't conflict with society or you may be contemplating your life from behind bars.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Hitler? He remained "true" to himself, and led his society.

[/ QUOTE ]

He lead his 'society' but society is supposed to lead him. And, in the end it did. His society was not the world's society though he tried to make it that way. Are you asking me if sick people with a warped sense of right and wrong should remain true to themselves? I should have been clearer in my statement. I meant to say you should do what makes you happy as LONG AS IT DOES NOT INFRINGE ON SOMEONE ELSE'S RIGHTS.

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
He lead his 'society' but society is supposed to lead him. And, in the end it did. His society was not the world's society though he tried to make it that way. Are you asking me if sick people with a warped sense of right and wrong should remain true to themselves? I should have been clearer in my statement. I meant to say you should do what makes you happy as LONG AS IT DOES NOT INFRINGE ON SOMEONE ELSE'S RIGHTS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Society is supposed to lead him? (What about Caesar?)

Furthermore, what is this "world's society" concept? (what if you were born 500 years ago, the world would be different then?)

Lastly, what are these rights people have, are they natural rights from birth or society constructed?