Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

If you need to shoot angles to have an advantage, maybe you should look at improving your game.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

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If I found something that would tilt the potentially strongest player at the table, I'd do it in a second if it were legal.

I understand the reasoning behind the original rule... but the simple fact of the matter is that it is still a rule and the reasoning behind wanting to see someone's cards is immaterial. If the floor wants to make it seem like the rule is ONLY for cheating, I will simply say "something doesnt seem right about his play".

Bonus points, because that will tilt half the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule is that you have the "privilege" to see a called hand at showdown. Operative word is privilege. Most of the rule books I have seen are worded this way and that privilege may be revoked for abuse.

My favorite story regarding this was pulled off by a friend of mine who executed the greatest slowroll ever. An old man was asking to see every hand at the river. After asking to see my friend's hand multiple times he was fed up with this guy.

A hand came up where he made the nuts on the river and just smooth called the old mans bet. The old man showed his hand and my friend declared "nice hand" and placed his cards face down in front of him. The dealer began swiping them in when sure enough true to form the old man said "I want to see that hand" Blam over comes the nuts, the pot gets reawarded, old man freaks out, and never asks to see a hand again.

[/ QUOTE ]

That takes balls that I do not have...

Props to your friend...

-Gryph

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

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If I found something that would tilt the potentially strongest player at the table, I'd do it in a second if it were legal.

I understand the reasoning behind the original rule... but the simple fact of the matter is that it is still a rule and the reasoning behind wanting to see someone's cards is immaterial. If the floor wants to make it seem like the rule is ONLY for cheating, I will simply say "something doesnt seem right about his play".

Bonus points, because that will tilt half the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule is that you have the "privilege" to see a called hand at showdown. Operative word is privilege. Most of the rule books I have seen are worded this way and that privilege may be revoked for abuse.

My favorite story regarding this was pulled off by a friend of mine who executed the greatest slowroll ever. An old man was asking to see every hand at the river. After asking to see my friend's hand multiple times he was fed up with this guy.

A hand came up where he made the nuts on the river and just smooth called the old mans bet. The old man showed his hand and my friend declared "nice hand" and placed his cards face down in front of him. The dealer began swiping them in when sure enough true to form the old man said "I want to see that hand" Blam over comes the nuts, the pot gets reawarded, old man freaks out, and never asks to see a hand again.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're friend is my hero. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But seriously - if it bothers people, its an advantage for me. I dont care if someone wants to see my mucked cards. I can count on my fingers the number of times that I havent showed them. But any advantage I can get is great. Its the same thing with someone like Matasow (sp?) talking so much crap... it bothers people... and takes them off their game.

I just cant talk smack like he can.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I found something that would tilt the potentially strongest player at the table, I'd do it in a second if it were legal.

I understand the reasoning behind the original rule... but the simple fact of the matter is that it is still a rule and the reasoning behind wanting to see someone's cards is immaterial. If the floor wants to make it seem like the rule is ONLY for cheating, I will simply say "something doesnt seem right about his play".

Bonus points, because that will tilt half the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule is that you have the "privilege" to see a called hand at showdown. Operative word is privilege. Most of the rule books I have seen are worded this way and that privilege may be revoked for abuse.

My favorite story regarding this was pulled off by a friend of mine who executed the greatest slowroll ever. An old man was asking to see every hand at the river. After asking to see my friend's hand multiple times he was fed up with this guy.

A hand came up where he made the nuts on the river and just smooth called the old mans bet. The old man showed his hand and my friend declared "nice hand" and placed his cards face down in front of him. The dealer began swiping them in when sure enough true to form the old man said "I want to see that hand" Blam over comes the nuts, the pot gets reawarded, old man freaks out, and never asks to see a hand again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you can't count on the floor to give you the pot in this instance. I have seen floor people rule this hand is dead. Yes I agree that the hand should be live here, but unless I am the floorperson my opinion doesn't much matter.

Tommy Angelo on \"I Want To See That Hand\"
 

Some of you guys might want to read esteemed 2+2 poster Tommy Angelo's thoughts on the "I Want to See That Hand" rule.. We also had at least one long thread on this a few years back but who has the time to search for it?

~ Rick

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

LOL what about when the dealer properly taps the cards to the muck first (killing them), then turns them over?

When someone asks to see your cards, you show your cards. You don't get mad. You don't look at them. You play on.

Re: Tommy Angelo on \"I Want To See That Hand\"
 

One solution that some rooms are going to is the "Only Players Involved in a Showdown Can ask to see a hand" rule. PErsonally i think this rule is worse than the older general rule.

There are two problems with this rule.

1) If the purpose of the rule is to detect collusion, why should only a player who pays off the last bets be allowed to detect collusion. If you really think there is cheating going on you shouldn't have to pay the cheaters to get the evidence.

2) It feeds the "I paid for the information" mentality that leads to abuse.


The rule I advocate is this --- No player gets to see a mucked hand (of course show one show all still applies). but if a player suspects collusion the hand is held aside for inspection by the floorperson who may reveal the contents of the hand if he deems it appropriate. This rule could apply at any time in the hand, not just show down -- so a player mucking their hand to a bet could still be subject to inspection.

I think this would greatly cut down on the number of requests.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

I like this idea. You have to be sure to do it against the person who keeps asking to see your hand, and make sure your cards DONT hit the muck when you fold.

A safer alternative would be to motion like you are going to muck then ask "I suppose you want to see this hand too?" - even if she says nothing or says no, you still get to slow-roll.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

In most rooms if the winner of the pot is the one who asks to see your cards, your hand is live.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

Be a dick.

1. Use the IWTSTH rule on him mercilessly
2. Slowroll as much as possible, as badly as possible
3. Laugh at him when he loses, even when you're not in the hand

easiest solution
 

Sit in the 1 seat where you can easily reach the muck. The 4 seat may work too. When you fold on the river and you think somone will ask to see your hand, quickly fold but do so one card at a time, buring each card individually, making it nearly impossible to retrieve the correct cards.

Re: easiest solution
 

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Sit in the 1 seat where you can easily reach the muck. The 4 seat may work too. When you fold on the river and you think somone will ask to see your hand, quickly fold but do so one card at a time, buring each card individually, making it nearly impossible to retrieve the correct cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

OR... just show down your hand like a good boy. Dont try to cheat the rules... just do it. You lost the hand. Sorry - you gotta pay the price to see the winning hand and part of that is giving up the info on the losing hand.

Re: Tommy Angelo on \"I Want To See That Hand\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rule I advocate is this --- No player gets to see a mucked hand (of course show one show all still applies). but if a player suspects collusion the hand is held aside for inspection by the floorperson who may reveal the contents of the hand if he deems it appropriate. This rule could apply at any time in the hand, not just show down -- so a player mucking their hand to a bet could still be subject to inspection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Mike O'Malley wrote about this in a Card Player column about six months ago. I'm on the way out the door but maybe someone can post a link.

~ Ricke

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is that you have the "privilege" to see a called hand at showdown. Operative word is privilege. Most of the rule books I have seen are worded this way and that privilege may be revoked for abuse.

My favorite story regarding this was pulled off by a friend of mine who executed the greatest slowroll ever. An old man was asking to see every hand at the river. After asking to see my friend's hand multiple times he was fed up with this guy.

A hand came up where he made the nuts on the river and just smooth called the old mans bet. The old man showed his hand and my friend declared "nice hand" and placed his cards face down in front of him. The dealer began swiping them in when sure enough true to form the old man said "I want to see that hand" Blam over comes the nuts, the pot gets reawarded, old man freaks out, and never asks to see a hand again.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the best poker related in-your-face pay-back story ever. Hands down.

Re: easiest solution
 

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OR... just show down your hand like a good boy. Dont try to cheat the rules... just do it. You lost the hand. Sorry - you gotta pay the price to see the winning hand and part of that is giving up the info on the losing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the dumbest responses I've seen. Even if what I suggested was breaking the rules - which it is not - the rule is there for a reason, and when it is being abused for another reason I have no problem with breaking it.

I suggested mucking quickly before anyone can ask to see your hand - that is certainly NOT against the rules. Showing a losing hand is not the price of calling down, the money it costs to call is.

Re: easiest solution
 

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OR... just show down your hand like a good boy. Dont try to cheat the rules... just do it. You lost the hand. Sorry - you gotta pay the price to see the winning hand and part of that is giving up the info on the losing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the dumbest responses I've seen. Even if what I suggested was breaking the rules - which it is not - the rule is there for a reason, and when it is being abused for another reason I have no problem with breaking it.

I suggested mucking quickly before anyone can ask to see your hand - that is certainly NOT against the rules. Showing a losing hand is not the price of calling down, the money it costs to call is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dumbest response aside, I still dont get why everyone is in such a huff about showing down your losing cards. You were the idiot that went to showdown with a loser. Admit you sucked and move on.

Personally, I think everyone should show down cards and mucking should be against the rules. But I would imagine that I am in the minority.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

1. Hollywood park does suck. Other than taking advantage of the pony players who don't pay attention to their cards, there is no reason to go there. The Bike is much better.

2. For those of you who don't think that asking to see the cards is offensive, you don't understand the implication. The rule was designed to prevent cheating/collusion. When someone asks to see your cards, they are making an accusation at you.

My usual way of dealing with this is to fire my cards one at the time in different areas of the much so that there is no way to pick them out. I then tell the person that if they want to know what I had thay can ask me politely and I may tell them, however if they want to accuse me of cheating they can do it straight up to my face and we can have a conversation about it outside.

I am very "old school" when it comes to etiquette at the table. I understand that there has been a large influx of newbies the last few years that don't understand the rules of behavior, but that doesn't mean that I have to tolerate all kinds of rudeness. Accusing someone of cheating is very rude.

Shauna

Re: easiest solution
 

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Dumbest response aside, I still dont get why everyone is in such a huff about showing down your losing cards. You were the idiot that went to showdown with a loser. Admit you sucked and move on.

Personally, I think everyone should show down cards and mucking should be against the rules. But I would imagine that I am in the minority.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing idiotic about having a losing hand at the river. You had pot odds to draw, you missed, now it's checked around. Someone shows a winner, you muck, and then someone asks to see your hand. People get upset about this because they ask only to get a line on your play, which isn't why the rule exists.

If you want a game where everyone is required to show at the river just play online.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

What does the reasoning behind the original rule have to do with the fact that it is still a rule?

And saying that its rude is sort of silly considering the pathetic role models that newbies have (i.e. the ESPN crowd)

Re: easiest solution
 

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There is nothing idiotic about having a losing hand at the river. You had pot odds to draw, you missed, now it's checked around. Someone shows a winner, you muck, and then someone asks to see your hand. People get upset about this because they ask only to get a line on your play, which isn't why the rule exists.

If you want a game where everyone is required to show at the river just play online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do play online mostly. I dont like driving 2 hours for a decent game. But my point is... what difference does it make as to what the rule was originally meant for? The fact of the matter is that it is still a rule. Until its changed, better get used to people asking, if for no other reason than to get under your skin.

Re: easiest solution
 

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[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing idiotic about having a losing hand at the river. You had pot odds to draw, you missed, now it's checked around. Someone shows a winner, you muck, and then someone asks to see your hand. People get upset about this because they ask only to get a line on your play, which isn't why the rule exists.

If you want a game where everyone is required to show at the river just play online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do play online mostly. I dont like driving 2 hours for a decent game. But my point is... what difference does it make as to what the rule was originally meant for? The fact of the matter is that it is still a rule. Until its changed, better get used to people asking, if for no other reason than to get under your skin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fortunatly if someone is abusing this rule, the floor can and will revoke the priviledge of seeing the cards. It isn't just the original intent, it is the current intent; asking to see someone's cards is the same as saying "I think you are cheating."

Re: easiest solution
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunatly if someone is abusing this rule, the floor can and will revoke the priviledge of seeing the cards. It isn't just the original intent, it is the current intent; asking to see someone's cards is the same as saying "I think you are cheating."

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the tangent... but why are all cards exposed in online then if it makes that much of a difference?

Re: easiest solution
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Fortunatly if someone is abusing this rule, the floor can and will revoke the priviledge of seeing the cards. It isn't just the original intent, it is the current intent; asking to see someone's cards is the same as saying "I think you are cheating."

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the tangent... but why are all cards exposed in online then if it makes that much of a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not familiar with online security procedures so I have no idea why they do things the way they do. Someone on the internet gambling forum could probably give you a better answer.

I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

I don't think asking to see someone's hand is rude. If I get in a pot and someone is raising me and re-raising me I want to know if they are raising w/ legit hands or if they are bullying. When I accuse someone of cheating (which is almost NEVER), I'll tell them to their face in clear language.

Winning in poker is about information and I want the info on the kind of hands I'm being raised with. The tougher/more aggressive my opponent, the more likely I will want to see the hands they are showing down against me.

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think asking to see someone's hand is rude. If I get in a pot and someone is raising me and re-raising me I want to know if they are raising w/ legit hands or if they are bullying. When I accuse someone of cheating (which is almost NEVER), I'll tell them to their face in clear language.

Winning in poker is about information and I want the info on the kind of hands I'm being raised with. The tougher/more aggressive my opponent, the more likely I will want to see the hands they are showing down against me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the exact abuse of the rule that isn't to be tolerated. Most players quit asking to see hands when it is explained to them that what they are doing is rude and is accusing the player of cheating.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

Might wanna use the extra time to work on your command of the english language.

Re: Tommy Angelo on \"I Want To See That Hand\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some of you guys might want to read esteemed 2+2 poster Tommy Angelo's thoughts on the "I Want to See That Hand" rule.. We also had at least one long thread on this a few years back but who has the time to search for it?

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

good article. I agree with his reasoning.

Shauna

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

Most players quit asking to see hands when it is explained to them that what they are doing is rude and is accusing the player of cheating.
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According to you and tradition. Screw tradition. I want to see if they are bullying with trash or if they are legit. If that makes me unpopular with the table then that is the price I pay.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

[ QUOTE ]
Try mucking a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]
hehe.. slow roll them. nice. hold your cards out ready to muck until they say "I want to see all hands". Then turn over the nuts.

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most players quit asking to see hands when it is explained to them that what they are doing is rude and is accusing the player of cheating.
************************************************** ***
According to you and tradition. Screw tradition. I want to see if they are bullying with trash or if they are legit. If that makes me unpopular with the table then that is the price I pay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also you have to realize that if an experienced floorman sees (or is told by a delaer or a player) what is going on you will lose the priviledge of over asking.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

I got into this thread briefly until I saw this sentence:

[ QUOTE ]
I do turbomuck. The dealer REMOVES my cards from the muck. This is all at hollywood park of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have no one to blame but yourself for playing at such an unprofessional room, then. There's plenty of legal poker rooms in Southern California that will likely not allow abuse of the rule; give them your business instead of these clowns, unless the game is just so good that you're willing to put up with this nonsense.

For a minute I thought you might be at Foxwoods or somewhere similar and have no choice. The right-hand-not-knowing-what-the-left-hand-is-doing nature of responses from the respective floors sounds like Poxwoods too, but I guess that's every big room.

SoCal poker players get no pity from this adoptive New Englander for unprofessional treatment. Don't like Hollywood Park? Don't go to Hollywood Park.

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

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If that makes me unpopular with the table then that is the price I pay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you don't understand poker if you think popularity at the table is independent of your EV in dollars. Granted, the higher the stakes the less popularity matters, I'm sure. Also the less likely the floor is to let you get away with this.

Now, my experience is that at low limits you're more likely to be unpopular by enforcing this rule than by breaking it but YMMV.

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

Well, you don't understand poker if you think popularity at the table is independent of your EV in dollars.
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OK, you have PARTIALLY persuaded me.
For producers I won't ask. For tough players trying to run over me then I will ask so I can understand how they play their hands. If they get ticked then I suppose I won't get a XMas card from them this year.

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

This thread proves no matter where in the country we play, there is always some middle aged donk making the game a bitch for everyone else.

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

Ugh...

This again?

Personally, I could care less if someone wants to see my cards if I've gone to showdown. Big whoop. Get over it. There are more important things to worry about of this game than this.

And yes, it is a weakness to get that bent out of shape over it. It can ellicit other players to do it to you for the sole purpose of trying to take you off your game.

b

it\'s not only rude as hell, it\'s majorly NEGATIVE EV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most players quit asking to see hands when it is explained to them that what they are doing is rude and is accusing the player of cheating.
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According to you and tradition. Screw tradition. I want to see if they are bullying with trash or if they are legit. If that makes me unpopular with the table then that is the price I pay.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely guarantee you with ZERO doubt whatsoever that the first time you ask to see my hand, I get MUCH tougher when playing against you in the future. I also guarantee with ZERO doubt that if you keep doing this that almost everyone who is the victim of your rudeness will do exactly the same thing, no matter how fishy they might be. Therefore any small EV you might gain by "getting a looksie" will be FAR MORE THAN OFFSET by the fact that everyone will not only play harder and smarter against you, but will likely start pulling the same bullcrap on YOU.

I also guarantee that if someone does this to me twice, or even pulls it at the table I'm at twice, that I will probably start asking to see EVERY ONE of their hands, but won't ask to see anyone else's (who isn't being rude and abusive) AT ALL. I might even suggest that the rest of the table do the same thing, try to get a bandwagon effect going. If you're going to press the point that being abusive and rude is "within the rules," then heck, I guess having it go both ways is within the rules too.

But of course it's up to you, you make your own bed, you can lie in it.

al

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

As an extrapolation here, a great defense against this kind of rudeness is to alert the floor right away that the "IWTSTH" rule is being abused/overused and get them to put a stop to it before the unpleasantness ruins a perfectly good game.

al

Re: easiest solution
 

Because of the notion that people can easily cheat online via cellphones, skype, instant messaging, multiple computers in the same household, and let's not forget those major jerkoffs at winholdem who think blatant cheating is just regular strategy, it's imperative that the rules online be considerably different than live game rules. Just the APPEARANCE of cheating online could be disastrous for the companies, thus the added security measures, many of which are designed just to make people FEEL BETTER. Most of the crap that does (or even could) happen online is completely irrelevant in a live cardroom, thus the rules are different.

It would be like trying to apply every single rule in the NFL to area football, it's the same basic game, football, but the context is so different that different rules are necessary, and for good reason.

al

Re: Dealer keeps showing people my cards
 

if they want to accuse me of cheating they can do it straight up to my face and we can have a conversation about it outside.


majQa' [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I Do Not Think Asking to See Someone\'s Hands is Rude
 

I want to see if they are bullying with trash or if they are legit.

What you *want* is irrelevant. You have no right to abuse a rule solely there to protect against cheating to help you profile your opponent.