Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

That's becuase only bad boxers end up in UFC. If any of the UFC boxers had skills they would box for the potential big money, not waste their time with UFC. Tyson, or any of the heavyweights ranked in the top ten, would destroy the best UFC fighters. I know boxing is a sleazy sport but the top guys are world class athletes with skills that are a cut above anything in the UFC.

Re: Rules?
 

What are UFC rules? I have seen one or two bouts but didn't know what was allowed. I know the grapplers do well and have seen guys working on grappling. But grappling only works in a situation with rules it seems to me. Knowing grappling is necessary and a lot of real fights end up on the ground. But ifa real fight goes to the ground you want to get up fast and use grappling to get out and if possible cause a sever injury. 20 minute sessions in some kind of mount position are pretty dangerous, but some of that is because of real-world concerns I suppose. Then again, I am no martial artist and have absolutely zero desire to do anything related to a sports fight, so I haven't studied it a whole lot.

I also don't get the "which martial art is best in the real world" discussions as applied to sportsfight events. The only way to find out would be to have truly no-rules fighting, but nobody in their right mind would participate. And then you would have to test grappling against 2-1 situations where grapplers would die.

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

I don't bet sports, but if I did I'd have to get very good odds to pick Tyson over any decent UFC (or similar) champ. The grapplers, starting with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's Royce Gracie, showed *totally* convincingly that a good grappler, trained in submission holds, and with a little experience in dealing with punches and/or kicks will win handily, nearly every time. Tyson's only chance - and it is a very small one - would be to knock out, or essentially incapacitate his grappler opponent with his first punch. If he didn't do that that grappler would be inside the punches and on him. Then it's over for Mike. The good grapplers have practiced getting punchers to the mat quickly, and would likely have little trouble doing so with Tyson or any other boxer.

OTOH, I'd give Tyson a very strong chance against a kick-boxer. Kicks don't add all that much, especially when compared to the power and skill of a world class boxer.

Concerning the issue of weight advantage when it goes to the mat. All things being roughly equal it's obviously an advantage. But if the smaller grappler is much more knowledgeable or technically skilled that can make a huge difference, as 180 pound Royce Gracie showed when he choked out 270 pound Olympic Greco-Roman wrestler Dan Severn (sp?) before Severn had become familiar with various chokes and submissions.

Regarding HDPM's thought that grappling is favored only when there are certain rules. I'd say it's really the reverse of that. Striking (boxing, karate...) is favored if there's some sort of an agreement that it won't go to the ground. Once it does, the stiker is finished. And it's extremely easy for the good grappler to get it to the ground. On occasion they sustain a glancing blow or two, but if they have the experience with dealing with that, then it's no big deal. (Also, note that the UFC started with *very* few rules. I think there are a few more now.)

Back in the '70s or so I was pretty highly trained in sport karate. (Worked out with some of the top guys in the Western US...) It wasn't till many years later, seeing UFC films and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu films that I appreciated the several years of wrestling (and the bit of Judo) I did (some under a really top notch coach) in grade school and high school. Though I was much more into karate as a sport than as a self-defense, on some level I still kicked myself (pun intended) for having devoted so many years to what was really useless against a good grappler. Now I think I'm too old to risk my body the way you have to, but if I were to take something for self defense or were to recommend something (aside from guns [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]), I'd go straight to Fabio Santos' Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school.

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

Grappling techniques are fine. But explain their application in a no-rules fight where you don't have a lot of time before your eye is out and a finger is trying to get to your brain. Or on the street the guy's free hand gets a weapon. You may be right, but when I see the grapplers working out they roll around for a long time. But I don't do it or watch much UFC so I don't know. In a no rules fight that could be a problem. On the street it's fatal. But as I said that is sometimes due to the fact that a friend of the guy you are fighting will just come and kill you or maim you while you are grappling. Granted, all the grapplers can kick my ass completely, and everybody for all-around fighting needs to know grappling. But how effective is it in true no-rules applications. My answer to all of this is don't get in a real fight. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tyson would kill any of the UFC guys. I'd bet the farm on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

K-1 has both kickboxing rules matches (which are striking/scoring oriented) and mixed martial arts matches (which are submission fights like UFC/WFA/etc.).

If Tyson were to fight any top UFC or other MMA guy in an MMA fight, I would happily bet you the farm. He stands almost no chance.

I assume Tyson will be fighting Bob Sapp in a kickboxing rules fight. I agree that he will have a good chance here. Sapp is a big, strong guy who has done pretty well, but he's only been at this for a couple of years after a brief stint as an offensive lineman in the NFL. Though he is super-hyped right now, I'm sure he is far from the best fighter in K-1. Having said that, I'm sure Tyson stands a fighting chance against even the best kickboxers.

But I'll reiterate that he has almost no chance against a jujitsu (or other such discipline) MMA guy under MMA/submission rules. His only shot is having his opponent make a mistake in his approach and Tyson gets off a knockout punch. But really the fight would be simple. The MMA guy circles, gets Tyson on the ground, and it's all over.

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

Joyce Gracie might be the one UFC fighter that would have a chance against Tyson. But Joyce was also willing to take a punch or two in order to get his opponent to the ground. I doubt he could afford that against a world class heavy weight. The grapplers on UFC have only shown that they can win against mediocre/poor boxers. I've seen many of the UFC events and IMO there has never been any competitor with hand speed and punching power that even comes close to approaching that of a world class heavy weight boxer. For the average Joe I agree with you that grappling skills are much more useful than punching ability.

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

FYI:

K-1 Kickboxing rules

K-1 MMA rules


The following actions are defined as illegal attacks . A fighter who executes a foul technique shall be penalized a caution (yellow card). A third caution (red card) during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter must return 10% of his fighting fee to K-1 per caution. Moreover, a fighter must return the full amount of his fight fee to K-1 when disqualified.


Biting.
Attacking the membrane (eye, nose or mouth).
Head butting.
Attacking the groin.
Pulling hair, ear or nose.
Direct attacks to the throat with fingers/hands, such as attacking or grabbing the throat.
Striking the back of the head, the spine, and/or the medulla of his opponent. (The back of the head is the centerline of the head; the side of the head and the area around the ears are not considered as the back of the head).
Elbow attack s to the head or the face of the opponent.
Attacking fingers (grabbing three or less fingers is not allowed)
Intentionally grabbing anything the opponent is wearing (not including Gi) (i.e. gloves, fighting costume, supporters, etc)
Grabbing the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body, hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet, over the rope.
Escaping from the ring during the course of a fight.
Throwing the opponent outside the ring.
Attacks not intended to damage the opponent, or that induce a deadlock/stalemate.
Exhibition of ill-mannered behavior or a malicious attitude as a professional fighter.


UFC rules

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.


So, yeah, most of the stuff you allude to which would be a factor in a true no-holds-barred fight are illegal in these matches. Apparently there are organizations that have no-holds-barred fights where nothing is against the rules, but I'm sure you'd never see any of these top martial artists in bouts like that.

On a side note to John...
 

John,

Did you train with Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, Steve Muhammad, or any of the legends of sport karate?

If so small world. I went to seminars given by all of them.

I use to compete in sport/point/semi contact Karate in the early 90's.

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

In no rules fighting, almost every fight (at some point) turns into a "wrestling match". Even in a fight on the street it usually goes something like: one punch, headlock/bear-hug/etc. , trip to the ground wildly throwing punches. A grappler is in excellent position here.

This all made me think about my earlier years...I did some martial arts stuff in high school and college. One thing we talked about was where to focus your eyes. My instructor (second highest ranked in the world in the particular form of martial arts) said that at about 12' go ahead and stare at your opponent. Once they get to about 8' you want to operate mainly on peripheral vision (so you aren't staring at a fist only to find a kick to the groin in your future). Once they get to within 2' or so you might as well close your eyes...they aren't helping. A good grapler can get a feel for their opponents body and take advantage thos 2' or less situations (where almost all fights end up). In your specific example of a finger in the eye...to get that close for that long with a grapler you are going to have a tough time.

I remember in high school there were a bunch of idiots who wanted to see who would do better in a fight. So they got 5 or 6 of the "karate" guys and 5 or 6 of the wrestlers and had a big fight (I know...like I said they were a bunch of idiots). The "karate" guys were WAY too confident in their abilities and got creamed (they were fighting several state champ wrestlers...one of which pinned his opponent in the finals in less than 2 seconds).

[ QUOTE ]
My answer to all of this is don't get in a real fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good advice. Any good self-defense program will discuss avoiding fights.

Re: Boxing Freak Show
 

a) You don't think a top martial artist can get Tyson on the ground without exposing himself to a clean punch? Yes, a lot of MMA guys take some blows before getting their opponent down, but rarely are they clean, square punches.

b) Without being on his feet, do you really think Tyson's punching power has much impact?