Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

Villain will bet a lot here if he thinks you'll fold overs. Or he has a 7 and thinks "hey, my hand is best!"

That said... why not call and raise a safe river?

Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

I think calling a raising a safe river is bad because your aren't charging enough for draws, and if he does have a 7 or a 4, he may bet any river and you will be missing a bet when you can't raise things like spades or a 3 or an 8.

Also, I feel that villians with aggression like this like to go crazy on the end, and he may 3 bet you with a seven anyways, thinking you are making a move on him and showing you that he is the "real" poker player.

I think raising and calling down a 3 bet is the best idea, but if we get 3 bet do we still call a spade, 3, or 8 on the end?

Best idea is to river a 10 and let him show 7-6.

results
 

villain here is 45/12/1.7. Other than that i really don't know much about him. These turn spots are very confusing for me. Do I raise? If he's betting a draw, I need to charge his dumb ass. Im he is on total air, do I want to discourage him from firing again on the river? If I raise and he 3-bets, is it not an easy fold? Please tell me what to do.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 9s Ks (flush, ace high).
Hero has Ts Th (two pair, tens and sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 7.16 BB. </font>

There doesn't seem to be a consensus here on what the best line is, and I don't know either. My turn aggression has been too high, and I thought part of the problem was that I would raise in spots like this. But at the same time, when a donkey gets there on a draw and I don't charge them it drives me utterly mad. Meh.

Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
On this board, I'd raise. On other less drawy boards, I'd call and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
this should be the concensus. there are just too many draws for him to have here for you to not raise the turn, unless you know he will lead busted draws on the river.

if you know he'll continue betting, you still make your two bets off of draws, and you make 3 bets off of made hands worse than yours.

Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
this should be the concensus. there are just too many draws for him to have here for you to not raise the turn, unless you know he will lead busted draws on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the games I play, if a player does (uncommonly) semi-bluff-donk in this situation, it seems to me like he usually will river-lead busted draws as a last ditch effort. How often do you expect a 'typical' donker to check-fold the river when he misses his draw?

Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

I'm kinda with you that I don't like the line I suggested.

Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
it seems to me like he usually will river-lead busted draws as a last ditch effort

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if you raise the turn, I think you have to call/bet any river, or else you will be missing too much value. If a spade falls and he checks I thinking betting folding to a c/r is the best line.

Re: middle card pairs and the donkey donks
 

I frequently see this as a bluff when I am pfr and the board is all low cards. I also see this as a chk raise bluff on the turn.

I usually just call in this situation - if he is bluffing I don't want him to stop - if he has the best hand it costs me less.