Re: K4s in SB
 

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How often do you think CO is going to fold on the turn? Do you have any hand range you think CO could be on? my default answer is I don't like a c/r on the turn.
bet the river for value

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CO is probably going to fold the turn exactly never, which is a good point. C/R the turn wouldn't have accomplished much since he is at least calling, and maybe 3-betting which I don't want.

As far as a hand range is concerned... he is obviously fairly aggressive, but I had noticed that when there were limpers in front of him he tended to only be raising if he had a reasonably good hand, whereas if he was in MP or later with no limpers he would raise with more marginal hands. I think he's raising with 99-AA, AK-A9s, KQ-KTs, QJs with limpers in front of him.

After reading your responses and re-evaluating the hand, I agree that this is probably a flop fold. Given the hand range that my opponent might have my K outs were likely no good. Even giving 1 out for kings, plus the backdoor flush makes calling incorrect.

Re: K4s in SB
 

Isn't this a fold preflop accrding to Miller's SSHE?

Re: K4s in SB
 

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If you are calling the flop I like a raise. Try and force out another hands that might improve to beat you.

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We are almost certainly behind right now; we don't need to worry about protecting K-high.

Re: K4s in SB
 

Playing K4suited out of the small blind against a raise and cold call down the line is a long term loss. Spare me any talk of playing styles or opponent tendencies. 25% of our investments are sound in this game. Trying to justify more and calling it a pot odd choice is most often better called a leak. Just my opinion.

Re: K4s in SB
 

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Playing K4suited out of the small blind against a raise and cold call down the line is a long term loss. Spare me any talk of playing styles or opponent tendencies. 25% of our investments are sound in this game. Trying to justify more and calling it a pot odd choice is most often better called a leak. Just my opinion.

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Calling 1.5SB with K4s all the time is definitely a leak. But there are times when it can be okay. I listed some reasons up above for why. Folding is fine here as well, though, because it's close.

Of course, you probably shouldn't call preflop if you're going to call with 2.5 outs on the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: K4s in SB
 

*grunch*

I think that despite the attractive pot odds K4s is too weak and does too poorly multiway for a call preflop here. Seems like a pretty clear fold to me.

I am not too sure about taking one off on the flop either, I would suspect my K outs are not clean and regard my total outs as about 3.

With the hand played as it was to the turn, your action was fine on this street.

I agree with the river check, and I think a turn CR would have been silly here. I think, seeing the K from the after-hand perspective, it seems like a grand idea, but most of them time your hand would have missed here.

Re: K4s in SB
 

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Calling 1.5SB with K4s all the time is definitely a leak. But there are times when it can be okay. I listed some reasons up above for why. Folding is fine here as well, though, because it's close.

Of course, you probably shouldn't call preflop if you're going to call with 2.5 outs on the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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Exactly ... this isn't a hand I normally play, but given how much money was going in, I decided to give it a shot. I think a fold is good here as well, but I don't think calling is that atrocious.

On the flop however, agreed - there's no way my K outs are clean and I gave myself too many outs. This is a clear fold.

FWIW (which isn't much) - he had JJ and MHIG. At the time I thought I was brilliant, but obviously this is a losing play in the long run.

Thanks for the comments.

Re: K4s in SB
 

blind post
Pre-flop: I would fold, but I agree with the way you think. You're getting 6:1,5 in immediate odds, but probably 10:1,5. I would certainly call with a pocket pair, about the suited cards I'm curious to see what others say.
Flop: Time to fold, you cant give yourself 3 outs for that king with 5 other players in the pot. I give you at the max 3 outs in total. For me to continue here I would need at least 2 overs and the BDFD.
Turn is fine, I don't see the point check raising. Too few players to try to pump your FD, of course you increase our chances of folding UTG, but I think the risk of being 3-bet is not worth it since we don't have a hand yet.