Re: JJ
 

So what was your logic with the flop call? This seems like the worst of the 3 options to me.

Re: JJ
 

so, why not raise the flop and charge the fish behind you?
I mean, HU the call is OK, but I am raising this flop with a loose player behind me.

Re: JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am raising this flop with a loose player behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

Re: JJ
 

Hey Crunchy i like the flop call but i still don't understand the turn check. You have 0% FE if you raise the flop and you open yourself up to a 3-bet from the lagtard which tells you the same thing that his original bet did. It means he has two cards.

Re: JJ
 

I dont like this flop call at all.

you're hand is very vulnerable to UTG's holdings, any A or Q and you're definately toast.

I think its very clear raise or fold on that flop. Theres a good chance that UTG is just donk betting. I think with a raise we put the preassure on him and represent a K. It doesnt matter if MP calls or not, hopefully he'll fold, but if he doesnt theres still a good chance you can get a free turn if you want it because MP doesnt seem that aggresive. And if you raise and get 3 bet you know exactly where you stand and can let this go on the turn. So i raise the flop and bet again the turn if i get an OESD or J, check/fold any overs and bet/fold any safe cards to try to get a free showdown.

Re: JJ
 

Crunchy did you poker stove your turn equity? I am at work so i can't.

If so what range of hands did you give them?

Re: JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Crunchy i like the flop call but i still don't understand the turn check.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the turn check just added a whole crap-load of hands to both these Villians that I'm now behind. I was planning to check/fold the turn.

Re: JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're hand is very vulnerable to UTG's holdings, any A or Q and you're definately toast.

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Guys! UTG is a 55/12. He's raising A LOT more hands than just cards above a Ten.

[ QUOTE ]
I think its very clear raise or fold on that flop. Theres a good chance that UTG is just donk betting.

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So if I raise I get 3-bet by a better hand, get called by marginal hands whose equity is probably very close to mine or fold out the worst hands that were just taking a shot but, may have continued putting in money with the worst hand on either the turn or river. If I do get 3-bet I probably call that bet and then fold the turn unless I catch one of my two outs - which by the way, might make me second best on that board. Of course anytime I fold to the UTG Villian there's a reasonable chance that I'm folding the best hand as he's certainly capable of bluff/semi-bluff 3-betting the flop and continuing on the turn. I would consider a raise if I thought I had a chance of folding out MP3 - but I just didn't see that happening. If MP3 can cold-call 3 PF - he's going to call 2 on a drawish flop.

I think raising is the worst of the 3 options.

[ QUOTE ]
I think with a raise we put the preassure on him and represent a K. It doesnt matter if MP calls or not, hopefully he'll fold, but if he doesnt theres still a good chance you can get a free turn if you want it because MP doesnt seem that aggresive.

[/ QUOTE ]
These players are not giving thought to my hand so attempting to "represent" something to them is a pretty worthless ploy IMO. You suggest that I raise in hopes that he'll fold. What hands do I want him to fold here? Why would I take a free turn card if I got it?

Re: JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
So if I raise I get 3-bet by a better hand, get called by marginal hands whose equity is probably very close to mine or fold out the worst hands that were just taking a shot but, may have continued putting in money with the worst hand on either the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

But these guys are both very loose. Why can't you expect them to pay off with a wide range of marginal holdings here? It would be nice to give the LP 2 bets to draw with or make a possibly bad fold, and given the wide hand ranges these guys could have you probably have the equity for a value-raise.

Re: JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am raising this flop with a loose player behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

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You don't have odds to draw and if you think you are ahead you should raise and [ QUOTE ]
charge the fish behind you

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