Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I dunno, it seems like so many players are just donking the turn here as well, hoping you have overs. That's what always happens to me.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

First off, not providing reads on the people behind us is bad. The whole problem revolves around what they are willing to fold and how likely they are to checkraise.

This is a 4-way pot. All I see is a weakish draw facing a bet with two live players behind me. I'm not willing to go to war to try and prove that AT is the best hand.

1. My normal play would be to call and see what happens next. Folding the turn unimproved is a very live possibility depending on who does what.

2. Folding is not a bad play here. If I respected CO's bet more or if I strongly feared a checkraise I would actually do it. Without the backdoors I would fold anyway.

3. Raising is only good under exceptional circumstances. It's a commitment to invest a lot of money in a weak hand with weak outs. It probably is the way to go if you are determined to show this hand down, but usually you shouldn't want to do that. I'd be looking for a good chance to be ahead of CO plus opponents behind me who would fold pairs for two bets. These are in short supply in the 1/2 game.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

I'd only raise here if I think that this guy's hand range is pretty wide; meaning he like to shoot at a harmless looking flop (to him) esp. he think you tend to play bigger cards and believes you missed.

I would think that more often than not he either paired the flop (or better) or is on a draw (e.g. diamond flush draw, straight draw). I also expect to see sets pop on the turn and not bet straight out on the flop (at least check/raise since you pf raised).

I'd probably tend to call the flop and muck the turn if we don't have a redraw or improved. But if you think that you can get away with a free card play more often than not here, then by all means raise. If he has a 7, 8, or smallish PP, then he may check into you. If a nondiamond undercard falls, I'd expect a stop and go from him. If it's 50/50 for you to call or raise, I'd tend to raise since the BDFD adds a little more value to your hand.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

Good points. Sorry about not giving reads on the other players -- quite important, I agree.


SB was 58/13/1.5 WTSD 40% over 350 hands.

EP limper was fairly weak and tight.

Not much check/raising goes on in this game (compared to what I read here about other limits). The players who do check/raise majorly overdo it while most players just donkbet tons of stuff.

I agree with calling here and folding the turn UI being a very real option -- one, in fact, that I would normally employ here. But I thought the possibility of a free card, perhaps having the best hand and being able to check it down UI in a heads-up pot, or folding out J9 (and other "dangerous" hands) was worth it. However it may not be.

The thing was that vs. this guy I just did not feel I could fold the flop though I agree that without the backdoor draw(s) I'm not liking my hand much.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

My only question for you would be, aren't we last to act on this flop? There is noone behind us--two checks, and a bet to us. We have a strong positional advantage.

Thanks,
Buzz

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

The two guys who checked have yet to "act," per se.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
My only question for you would be, aren't we last to act on this flop? There is noone behind us--two checks, and a bet to us. We have a strong positional advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]
We are the TAG PFR. The early players are taking it for granted that we will bet and they will get another chance.

Going for the checkraise against the PFR is standard procedure in general. On this flop where almost all made hands are extremely vulnerable to a plethora of draws, trying to confront the remaining field with two bets is almost mandatory.

Digression: Imagine you are SB with 98. What should you be thinking?

Answer: My top pair plus outs give me a large equity edge in a 4-way pot. I should get as much money in as I possibly can. If I had 88 then *maybe* I should consider the consequences of using excessive force and driving out my customers. But that's not an issue with my actual hand because folds don't bother me at all. I want to hit them as hard as I can and what they decide to do about it is not my problem.

This is usually the right attitude toward protecting a hand. The whole business of computing the odds your opponents are getting and guessing who might call with what is rarely relevant to anything.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

so the OP people are expecting you to bet, however if it does come around to you in this pot you're checking right?

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
so the OP people are expecting you to bet, however if it does come around to you in this pot you're checking right?

[/ QUOTE ]
If this flop checks to me on the button I would bet. There is some chance of being best and there are reasonable drawing prospects.

However one certainly should not be autobetting against three opponents. Change it around so that the flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and my hand is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now I will click checkfold as soon as I see this flop. If I'm still here on the turn we can discuss it.

Re: Flop raise with overs
 

Like the raise here. The cut off could easily bluf his straight or flush outs. Besides of that you let the SB and MP face a cold call which means they can only call with a flush out and OE straight with overcards. It also improves your odds to win when you catch your T and offcourse your freecard on the turn.

Greetz, Surf