Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

mknoll: pretty accurate call on your part. I really deabted just calling, but decided against it because I didn't trust MP1 to check it down; he didn't seem smart enough to do so. Taking that into consideration, I figured UTG had a pair or any A and that UTG+1 could have almost anything, in which case I definitely likely my chances, particularly for only 6k. My biggest goal when deciding what to do was wanting to have enough chips to be able to play back at MP1 just once, so I thought pushing gave me a chance to accumulate a ton of chips if MP1 called and I won a coin flip (I was due to win one anyway.). Furthermore, I still stand to amass quite a nice stack if MP1 folds and I knock out the other 2, at least enough to put some fear into MP1 and make him think twice about playing at me.

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

With that read I really like the push!

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

I like a push here, I like it more if you can get the big stack to fold. Then you're getting 3:1 to take AK into a 3 way race.

"I really deabted just calling, but decided against it because I didn't trust MP1 to check it down; he didn't seem smart enough to do so"

I don't agree with this line of thinking. You don't want to check it down. You want to maximize your odds of winning this hand. Assume you call, he has KQ and you both flop nothing. He pushes allin and you fold - this may seem like a bad play but it increases his chances of winning the pot tremendously, so its correct for him.

Calling here is very bad. I don't like folding either, I would push here a lot, and more if the big stack is probably going to laydown.


<fyi this was in reply to moldman>

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

Yeah, I agree with your reasoning Mez. I debated the call with the idea that in a multi-way pot, we could knock two people out of the tourney. But that wouldn't have been nearly as productive for me, and like you said, a flop bet by him on a board I don't hit puts me to the test. My whole decision was really based on MP1, and I had a tough time figuring him out. I thought my best chance to get him out of the picture was to push, figuring that at worst I'd be in a coinflip situation with him if he called. No way I put him on AA or KK since he didn't raise.

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

You have 2 options.

1. Push (or make an obvious "I'm commited" raise)

2. Call and hope to hit an A or K (trying to build a side pot if you hit it) . Here you have to be willing to take a 8k hit to your 40k stack and fold to a crappy flop.


If I thought the big stack was capable of calling light I'd try to take him off of his hand. I don't want a hand like 88 calling here. It is possible/likely that at least 1 of your Aces is dead. So you don't want a hand like 88 to see a flop if its less likely he'll have to deal with overcards.

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

This is a clear push. You've got a fantastic starting hand, and there are two desperate short stacks pushing and dead money from the blinds and a caller. Sorry it didn't work out.

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

Actually, it did work out, at least this hand - just in an ugly way, but I still got what I wanted. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting carried away with the push.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO (t10775)
Button (t61216)
SB (t22570)
BB (t13329)
UTG (t6335)
UTG+1 (t7696)
MP1 (t107549)
Hero (t40530)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t6235</font>, UTG+1 calls t6235, MP1 calls t6235, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t40430</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t1361 (All-In), MP1 folds.

Flop: (t61096) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t61096) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t61096) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t61096

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has 3c 3d (flush, eight high).
UTG+1 has Qc Kd (flush, queen high).
Hero has Kc Ad (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins t61096. </font>

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this line of thinking. You don't want to check it down. You want to maximize your odds of winning this hand. Assume you call, he has KQ and you both flop nothing. He pushes allin and you fold - this may seem like a bad play but it increases his chances of winning the pot tremendously, so its correct for him.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you in a cash game and I would never advocate this play in a cash game. However, this is the final table of a tournament where ECV and E$V begin to diverge. Since it is out there now let's use the actual flop that came of 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If I am the deep stack player here is the hand from my view. The side pot is ~30k with 2 players all in, I have 53k behind and have to bet into the guy with 32k who has yet to act. I don't see how I make this play with K Q. In any assesment of my hand vs any 3 other random hands I can't imagine I am ahead. (someone with pokerstove can crunch the numbers if they want). Given that I am probably behind, I only have FE vs one of 3 players there is no benefit and only a downside to bluffing at this pot as I am only getting called by a hand that beats me (AA-88 any had with a 5, and if he has 2 clubs) and if I successfully get someone to fold their hand I still have to contend with the 2 all in guys for the pot. Maybe I am giving the big stack guy too much credit for thinking through his play but I just can't see him attempting to bluff me out of the pot. Finally, Even if he does get me to fold a better hand I got my money in with the best of it and missed the flop and I still have 32k chips and moved up a place or 2. Not a disasterous result for a primo hand.

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't played many MTT, mainly 2 table SNGs, but have been giving these 20 table deals a shot. Played in like 15, with a couple ITMs, but no final tables. Last night, the poker gods were good early and I doubled up twice on first orbit.

Down to final table with big stack LAG to my right. Everyone else seems pretty tight. What is my move here preflop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO (t10775)
Button (t61216)
SB (t22570)
BB (t13329)
UTG (t6335)
UTG+1 (t7696)
MP1 (t107549)
Hero (t40530)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t6235</font>, UTG+1 calls t6235, MP1 calls t6235, <font color="#CC3333"> Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a rare situation where you can easily fold AK IMHO. You've got 3 other people in the hand, AK does not do well against at least 3 other people, even if they don't have AA/KK, or even QQ/JJ/TT that you're not in great shape against. Probably one person is going to get knocked out (or close to it), and a good chance another will amost get knocked out. 10k stack could lose a lot here. Bump yourself up effectivly two spots and fold.

I'd call with AA and KK here, QQ I think I can fold.

edit: I misread your stack. I'd have just called and hoped to check it down with 10k. You want to maximize your chances of knocking out as many people as possible here, b/c the money jumps (presumably) are steep. I think you got semi lucky that one of them didnt have a high pair, and I think you need to be maximizing your chances of AA/KK getting sucked out on.

Re: Preflop with AK at final table in PS 20 table SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]

Given that the right move is obviously to call and check it through then I think any discussion of what UTG and UTG+1 have is irrelevant but for my money I expect them to make this move with any ace, PP, or even suited king. I had a similar hand last night and I ended up calling with A J vs k 5 and 4 4. I suspect he is in a similar situation here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate calling and checking it down. I want those chips and a significantly increased chance at 1st. I push

-g