Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

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And you're getting like 6 or 7 to one on your money. Last time I checked getting 6-1 on a 2-1 (of course you won't be ahead every time you flop a pair but most of the time you will be) bet is good stuff.

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2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

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AK doesn't do so poorly in big multiway pots, especially when the players are really poor. Of the times you don't flop a pair, you will flop at least a nice draw the vast majority of the time.

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Theres a section on loose low limit games in
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players
by David Sklansky (Author), Mason Malmuth (Author)

It talks about not raising in AKo but raising with JTs

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Have you read SSHE? If not you definitely should--you might reconsider your answer to this question after reading it.

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I by no means think I know it all, I was just playing devils advocate as per the request [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I didnt come up with that stuff anyways, just repeating what i read.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.


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You still have an equity edge here, the point that someone with a pair is a favourite against you has nothing to do with it. By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money.

AK is perhaps not a dream in this multiway pot, but it's still correct to raise for value. You will win more than your fair share of the time.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.


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You still have an equity edge here, the point that someone with a pair is a favourite against you has nothing to do with it. By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money.

AK is perhaps not a dream in this multiway pot, but it's still correct to raise for value. You will win more than your fair share of the time.

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But if someone has JJ and you raise aren't you the one making a mistake?

Not saying your wrong, Actually trying to learn something here. What you guys are saying is great feedback for my ocasional limit game at the casino.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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I bet, UTG+1 raises, I fold.




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So there's zero chance he's got AK (and not the flush) here?

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

Light bulb just went off in my head lol

Your talking about a raise for everyone you DO have beat. Makes perfect sense.

I was always thinking about going in with the best hand and applying an advantage over the entire table.

Thanks, this is really interesting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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1. you probably dont have the best hand, someone has a pair. Your going to the flop a dog and have a 35% chance of catching an ace or king.

2. AKo does well against against few opponents and poorly in a big multiway pot.

3. because of point 2, the purpose of a raise would be to eliminate players not for value. at this point, no one is going to fold for one more bet. This game looks loose.


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You still have an equity edge here, the point that someone with a pair is a favourite against you has nothing to do with it. By raising you force all the others who already made a mistake by entering the pot, you force them to contribute more money to the pot, thus providing the pot with more dead money.

AK is perhaps not a dream in this multiway pot, but it's still correct to raise for value. You will win more than your fair share of the time.

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But if someone has JJ and you raise aren't you the one making a mistake?

Not saying your wrong, Actually trying to learn something here. What you guys are saying is great feedback for my ocasional limit game at the casino.

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If you're heads-up you're making a mistake. But if you for example have 5 fishes limping, and you raise and make them contribute even more money to the pot, they're providing more "dead money" to the pot; that is, money they will not win back in the long run, money you and the JJ-guy will fight for. The JJ-guy will have a slightly bigger share of that dead money, but you will have some of it too. Thus, the raise is for value.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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If you're heads-up you're making a mistake. But if you for example have 5 fishes limping, and you raise and make them contribute even more money to the pot, they're providing more "dead money" to the pot; that is, money they will not win back in the long run, money you and the JJ-guy will fight for. The JJ-guy will have a slightly bigger share of that dead money, but you will have some of it too. Thus, the raise is for value.

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Excellent, thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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I think the rest of the hand was played fine

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Yeah okay whatever.

I challenge anyone to come up with a real, reasonable argument involving at least some math as to why just calling here before the flop can even be close to "fine."

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This discussion has happened so many times over in so many different forms that I'm really surprised that you haven't seen a convincing argument for it. On the Button I don't mind 3-betting and playing what amounts to all-in poker at all, and I don't mind a 3-bet here from the BB, but I don't think it's even close to mandatory. The fact that you've got a field you can either trap or eliminate based on flops, that your hand strength isn't pronounced in the slightest (often allowing you to gain more bets on a flop that you would have gained less from when you 3-bet preflop). Yes, you get a fair amount of equity when you 3-bet preflop; at the same time, you create what is tantamount to an all-in "see you at the river" situation for most people involved, which, while it is profitable, is often not nearly as profitable as seeing a flop and choosing to exploit the fact that you have a postflop edge over all the players involved in this pot.

That said, on the river, I pay the man his moneys.

Rob

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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Yes, you get a fair amount of equity when you 3-bet preflop; at the same time, you create what is tantamount to an all-in "see you at the river" situation for most people involved, which, while it is profitable, is often not nearly as profitable as seeing a flop and choosing to exploit the fact that you have a postflop edge over all the players involved in this pot.

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You seem to have a very solid point here.

I very much appreciate your explanation.

Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
 

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I reraise preflop and I see a showdown.

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While I apparently disagree with einbert's views on occasion this is unequivocally correct. The arguments for not 3-betting AKo from the blinds stems from the idea that given certain flops we can make up our lost equity by limiting the field because you kept the pot smallish and when you face the field with two cold (see Jason_t’s recent post for possibly a correct situation to do this), thus increasing your equity. The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr, but there are going to be very few flops where you are going to want to do that over other options. So basically given the position of the pfr collect your extra sklansky money now by raising this [censored] preflop and then play some poker.

As for the river, folding sucks. The pot is large and pretty much all of his full house hands don't make sense for a decent player and he his not going to have a flush enough to make your call unprofitable so pay the man.