Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hypothetical situation:

Both villains here are loose and passive - they'll call down with any pair and don't raise without a very strong hand.

We have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP.

Preflop: folded to us, we raise, folded to the blinds who both call.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
blinds check, we bet, they call

Turn: (4.5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
blinds check, we bet, they call

River: (6 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
blinds check, we bet, SB calls, BB check/raises, <font color="blue">we fold</font>

We're not obligated to call a river raise or check/raise. We need to bet here because both villains will call with a pair - we miss out on a ton of value if we check behind.

There are lots of other situations, of course. I hope this gives you an idea of what we're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. I had KK in almost the exact same situation last night. The only difference was, the betting was capped pre-flop with 1 of the villain's being aggressive, and there was a raise on the flop, so the pot was much bigger. At what size in BB would you say it's worth it to call a check-raise on the river? In your example, the pot was quite small, only 6BB, however what if the pot is over 10BB? In that case would a bet/fold still be right or would it be more appropriate to bet/call if raised? Thanks very much.

Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

There's no fine line when to call that river check/raise. 10BB is certainly getting there. It depends on the opponent as well. If the pot is 6BB on the river, we bet, and villain raises, it's then 9 BB to us. We have to be good at least one time in 10 or 10% of the time. In other words, the villain has to be bluffing 10% of the time.

If the pot is 10BB on the river, we bet, villain raises, then it's 13BB to us and we have to be good 1 time in 14 or only 7% of the time. A 15BB pot on the river - we only have to be good ~5% of the time. The bigger the pot, the less villain has to be bluffing for us to call.

All of this is opponent dependent. If I saw a 15BB pot on the river, I'm calling with my overpair pretty much every time. 10BB would be fairly often, but it would depend on the opponent. 6BB and I might call against an unknown or a tricky player, but not against the player described.

These decisions are rarely absolute, and they don't exist in a vacuum. What we decide depends on the size of the pot and how often we think our opponent is bluffing. The bigger the pot, the less often villain has to be bluffing to make a call profitable.

Hope that helps.

Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

It does help. Thanks a lot. I'll try that hand converter again and see if I can make it work.

Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hypothetical situation:

Both villains here are loose and passive - they'll call down with any pair and don't raise without a very strong hand.

We have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP.

Preflop: folded to us, we raise, folded to the blinds who both call.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
blinds check, we bet, they call

Turn: (4.5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
blinds check, we bet, they call

River: (6 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
blinds check, we bet, SB calls, BB check/raises, <font color="blue">we fold</font>

We're not obligated to call a river raise or check/raise. We need to bet here because both villains will call with a pair - we miss out on a ton of value if we check behind.

There are lots of other situations, of course. I hope this gives you an idea of what we're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn' betting the flop be giving the flush drawl the proper odds to call to the river?

Say the blinds are 4/8 that would put 24 into the pot preflop and with the possible flush drawl wouldnt checking the flop be the proper play? Then to bet the turn giving the drawler 4-1 money making it incorrect for him to continue?

Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn' betting the flop be giving the flush drawl the proper odds to call to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The flush draw will have the odds regardless. (4-1 may be a bit low, but he can easily make up for it with implied odds.)

[ QUOTE ]
Say the blinds are 4/8 that would put 24 into the pot preflop and with the possible flush drawl wouldnt checking the flop be the proper play? Then to bet the turn giving the drawler 4-1 money making it incorrect for him to continue?

[/ QUOTE ]
Two issues:

1) The level doesn't matter. I gave you the number of bets - why do you need a dollar amount?

2) Before you make yourself look even more silly, it's a draw, not a drawl.

Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The issue is, these flush draws definitely have odds to keep drawing by this point, so I can't push them out.

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Correct. Miller once posted that you and the flush draws are in a race/coin flip for the pot, and that any raising you do if for value and to protect your hand from non-flush draws.

Re: Playing against flush draws.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn' betting the flop be giving the flush drawl the proper odds to call to the river?

Say the blinds are 4/8 that would put 24 into the pot preflop and with the possible flush drawl wouldnt checking the flop be the proper play? Then to bet the turn giving the drawler 4-1 money making it incorrect for him to continue?

[/ QUOTE ]

We are not putting bets in necessarily to make it incorrect for a flush to draw (protection), we are putting bets in as we have the best hand, and will usually have the best hand by the river(value).