Two Plus Two Older Archives - need help with two 10/20 hands

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- - need help with two 10/20 hands (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=374588)

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

is a flop raise in #1 always out of the question?

Hand 1 flop raise?

No one raises this flop? If I don't, it's cause I'm waiting to raise almost any turn? This bad?

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

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ok this must be where im having problems in SH play in hand 2 after the guy bets the turn,i thought to myself "fold" ok i suppose most will say he can be betting a draw or going bananas with less that 99 but is that usual for SH players?

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There are certainly passive players in these shorthanded games who will not go nuts with a draw or less than top pair. Without a read, the default aggressive players in these games could easily cap a flop with a draw out of position. In general, I start to find folds with my marginal hands when I get raised on turns.

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i mean on this forum when it is HU the advice is almost always to call down, no matter how much agression the guy has shown, is very agressive play that common? do you ever fold HU when the board is drawy?

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Wihtout a read, I rarely am folding hands heads up when I have middle pair or better in these games. I show much more respect to turn and river aggression than on the flop.

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

"To the OP, why are you raising this river? "

because i thought worse hands would call my raise...did you catch that i had 2pair?

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

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Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero ?
Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]even tho hand 1 is similar to a WA/SA situation, I think we must raise the flop because even though we have our diamond draw, hands like KQ QJ KJ still have too many outs(especially if they contain a diamond) Given that we didnt, the river is a pretty easy call. I can see AK AQ AJ doing this. As far as hand 2, I would need reads here. Against most opponents I fold this on the turn(but then I'm not raising this flop), but against the very aggro ones that can do this with either the FD or the OESD or two random overcards, I call down. I personally wait to raise the turn after getting c/r in hand 2. It has to be a safe turn though, otherwise I just call down and bet when checekd to.

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

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"To the OP, why are you raising this river? "

because i thought worse hands would call my raise...did you catch that i had 2pair?

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Oh my bad, I read the hand too fast and missed the 2 pair. The hand makes more sense now. I thought I was going crazy.

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

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is a flop raise in #1 always out of the question?

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Well say we give SB AK, AA, QQ or some overpair to a T...your equity on the flop is 50/50 and if u raise there is a decent chance u get 3bet here pretty often. The only reason to raise is if it affects the big streets...like say it gives u a bigger percentage that sb will fold, incorrectly laying down an Ace or overpair on the turn/river...then a raise is worthwhile. While from an equity standpoint a raise or call does not matter.

There is a post somewhere by Ed Miller on a situation like this (or close to I believe...I read it over a year ago)

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

"Well say we give SB AK, AA, QQ or some overpair to a T.."

??? his range is sooo much bigger than that.

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

Right I was going to edit this in, but I was to lazy to do it...I know his range is a good size here...but at best he has a 4-7 outer if we are ahead (if u count a BD draw or a gutshot he may have on the flop which is more likley...so 6-7 outs usually is what u are looking at). If he has a diamond, hes peeling the flop if u raise and not folding on the turn. I would mind him firing more bets at the pot when Im ahead and I dont really want to be threebet when behind, regardless if he does threebet and we are 50/50.

You can raise the flop either way to no fault, but either way it just depends on your read of him. There are 3 lines u can take here...yours, raising flop calling down a 3bet...or calling raising turn. I think if Im raising I might do it on the turn (sometimes this depends on what the card is), which again sucks if u get threebet...usually I know which line is best while at the table, just depends. The two that cause the least stress-wise/cost-wise are calling down or raising flop and going from there...but calling and raising turn is more likely to cause him to fold a hand with outs (depends on card because if the card is nothing, u could be getting 3bet often).

EDITED FOR CONTENT.

Re: need help with two 10/20 hands

Is raising with T4s first in on the button in a 4-handed game close to a default play, or is it against some specific blinds and how we've been running at the table?

When the game gets shorter and shorter I tend to raise more on the button unless I know for sure my steal success pre- and postflop are very small. But the hands I do it with are hands with either high card value or suited connectors/one-gappers etc, and T4s doesn't belong to any of those categories. I mean, in a 6-handed game I raise a lot of suited hands first in on the button, but when the game is 4-handed, don't we get called a lot more when we're trying to steal, making the value of stealing with a hand like T4s go down? I can only assume it's profitable since you do it.