Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

I did forget about the 2 of hearts and the other thing, but you asked how many outs you can have on the flop, not what gives you the best chance of winning.

Not sure if these "have" to correspond because of different kinds of redraws. For example, my hand posted gives more outs than your hand to make a winning hand on the turn, but it also gives more outs to the other hand because another 9 gives the 22 a full house. So the percentage to win the hand might be less, but outs are more.

BTW, if you search, we have done this before and the answer I believe is 26 or 24.

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

This reminds me of Doyles example in SS. Whereas someone can hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. They flopped the nuts...however they are a statistical underdog to someone holding 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

MDoranD

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

50 OUTS!

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

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The most outs you can have is 24.

Opponent has black 22.

Flop 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

You hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

3 J's
3 Q's
9 Hearts
8 Open-end strait minus 2 for the hearts = 6 Straits
3 T's

3+3+9+6+3 = 24

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you count the two of hearts but that would give your oppenent a full

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of Doyles example in SS. Whereas someone can hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. They flopped the nuts...however they are a statistical underdog to someone holding 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].


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That's not a good definition of the nuts. On that flop, the nuts is 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which is not a dog to any hand heads up.

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

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[ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of Doyles example in SS. Whereas someone can hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. They flopped the nuts...however they are a statistical underdog to someone holding 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].


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That's not a good definition of the nuts. On that flop, the nuts is 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which is not a dog to any hand heads up.

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The nuts on that flop is any 45. It does not have to be of hearts.

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

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Whereas someone can hold 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. They flopped the nuts...however they are a statistical underdog to someone holding 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].


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That's not a good definition of the nuts. On that flop, the nuts is 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which is not a dog to any hand heads up.

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The nuts on that flop is any 45. It does not have to be of hearts.

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If you read the above carefully, you'll see that I suggested that there are multiple definitions of the nuts. So, what did your post add?

If Hold'em were a 5-card game, it would make sense to say that any 45 is the nuts, and if Hold'em were a 2-card game, 22 would be the 13th best hand. However, there are two more cards to come, and 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a significant underdog 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1281397
5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 0.318
5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 0.682

Given that it has 31.8% equity against 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], would you call 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] "an unbeatable hand?" Would you call it the best possible? I hope not. You can say that it makes an unbeatable 5-card hand if the game were stopped at this point, but again, that's a lousy definition.

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

Whenever you are defining the nuts, you have to stop at the given stage in the hand. It is called the stone cold nuts if it is impossible that it will be beat throughout the rest of the hand. 45 and 45 of hearts are both the nuts at the given time and neither of them are the stone cold nuts. Yes, I would rather have 45 of hearts, but it does not make the hand any better at the given moment in time. This is all I was talking about.

AA is the nuts preflop. On a rainbow flop of AA7, it is the stone cold nuts on the flop. On a flop of AT7, it is the nuts, but far from stone cold.

Are you trying to say that on a flop of A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] isn't the nuts because A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or
A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a better hand?

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

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Whenever you are defining the nuts, you have to stop at the given stage in the hand.

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Wrong. Did you overlook my definition, which does not rely on stopping in the middle of the hand?

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AA is the nuts preflop. On a rainbow flop of AA7, it is the stone cold nuts on the flop.

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If you are going to post, please take the time to think about this more clearly. Quads on the flop can be beaten. Someone can always catch a runner-runner straight flush. So, that definition is just about useless.

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Are you trying to say that on a flop of A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] isn't the nuts because A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a better hand?

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No, that's not what I said at all.

Any AA is a favorite over any other hand heads-up on that flop. If I have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you can't have A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Re: The Maximum Outs in hold \'em vs. a made hand
 

"If you are going to post, please take the time to think about this more clearly. Quads on the flop can be beaten. Someone can always catch a runner-runner straight flush. So, that definition is just about useless."

Yeah, that is the second time I said something stupid without thinking it over in this post. Oh well. I'll try to think before I post in the future.


BTW, most of this stuff is stupid semantics and I agree with what you are saying for the most part and I think you agree with what I'm saying, it's just semantics seperating the views.