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- Mid-, High-Stakes Pot- and No-Limit Hold'em (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)

- - A NL600 hand... (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=347945)

Re: A NL600 hand...

Because you hate getting paid off when the flush hits?

I check/call again.

River I either hope to c/r or make a weak bet that can be interpreted as a 'blocker'. Generally my style is to bet it weak and hope to induce a bluff. The only hand that I would value bet behind is AJ. Even AK (I think) is a clear check behind.

Re: A NL600 hand...

Was browsing on my phone and didn't see the suits, your flush on river was therefore a revelation.

The river check is definitely bad. He'll check behind here the majority of the time. Value bet it for 1/3 - half-pot, and I prefer half-pot since most of my bluffs are half-pot bets so it disguises that. But that's just me, of course.

Kirk

Re: A NL600 hand...

My post was referring to planning to check-call flop and lead turn after the flop hits. I don't think that you can assume that runner-runner flush will happen when you're at the flop. I think the flop play is probably the most important street. I hate leading out OOP with hands like this in 5way pots. You're in a difficult situation when raised. By check-calling flop and leading turn, after the turn you usually know exactly where you are at and it also confuses your opponent.

Ryan

Re: A NL600 hand...

I see no value here in leading the turn.

If the player isn't comfortable with A Q on a A J rag board, he could c/r to find out where he is at - a call or raise from the villain equals immediate shut down. As it is, the turn gave 9 outs to the nuts even if we're not good now. We want to encourage a weaker ace to keep betting and we're not going away now to anything short of a big overbet given that we have 12 outs assuming villain having AJ. A check/call here disguises our flush draw and you're far more likely to get paid off if the flush hits. Personally I would raise it or even push if hero bets on the 4d assuming there my stack is deep enough to have FE. There is nothing else the hero or anyone else can put us on other than two pair or a set betting to protect. The only hand that can call is a slowplayed AA or JJ imo. I would fold AK.

Re: A NL600 hand...

your answer doesnt address the question, which is whether it is better to check call the flop with AQ on a drawless flop.

I like the check call. if you bet out on the flop and get raised, you have no idea if they are doing it with A good kicker like AT or aces up. you find your hand too big to fold so you call the raise and you are confused for rest of the hand.

Re: A NL600 hand...

I'd probably check/minimum raise or flat out make a 3/4 pot bet for information if I've no clue of his possible hand and if you know it's going to be expensive to see a showdown (i.e. other player is very aggressive). A call or raise and it's easy to slowdown or fold either right now or on future streets. With AQ, the only ace that could fire out a bet and that I'm beating is A10 and unless that player is observed as a very bad LAG I cannot assume I'm good here and I fold to a re-raise.

In a live game it might be different depending on your read of the player.

Added bonus! River move...

Results to come soon...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Garland (10 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($605.25)
UTG+2 ($572)
MP1 ($777.75)
MP2 ($736.30)
MP3 ($640.60)
CO ($459.45)
Button ($614)
SB ($382.39)
Garland ($648.95)
UTG ($701.70)

Preflop: Garland is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $6, 3 folds, MP3 calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Garland checks.

Flop: ($33) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Garland bets $23, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $23, CO folds, Button calls $23.

Turn: ($102) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Garland checks, MP3 checks, Button bets $45, Garland calls $45, MP3 folds.

River: ($192) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Garland checks, Button bets $40, Garland raises to $200...

Results and thoughts...

Thanks for the interesting comments. Here's a blow-by-blow account of my thoughts:

Pre-flop: AQs...yeah a powerful hand, but several factors swayed me against a raise here.

(1) UTG+1 was a nit. 14.6 VP$IP from another hand I posted earlier. nit player hand from earlier I was very unlikely to buy the pot outright with him limping under the gun as he's very likely holding a pocket pair. Although this guy is normally very passive, I couldn't discount the small possibility that he would limp re-reraise. Once he calls, it's likely to cause a chain reaction of calls that gets 5 players in with a swelled pot. Not the desired result I want.
(2) If I flop a draw, like a gutshot or a flush draw, I'd like to keep the price small.
(3) I just like to mix it up from time to time. I will raise if I feel the opportunity was right. This time was not it.

Flop: Pretty good for my pretty well-concealed hand. Top pair with a good kicker and a backdoor flush draw. Let's bet and see what's out there.

Turn: A diamond. Perfect time to check. Why? As some have mentioned, I don't want to get blown off the live nut flush draw. If I lead and get raised big, I would have regret betting in the first place as my cards hit the muck. In addition, my hand is well-concealed for the river if I should hit. If it checks around, no big disaster really as the free river is more likely to help me than hurt. It's like what I do when I'm in position and turn a live draw...I check and don't allow a check-raise to ruin me.

Note: the turn made my opponent the nut wheel, and leading would have been disaster should he decide to raise big.

River: My thoughts are how to get the most into the pot. If I lead big, and he has a weak A, he may not call. If he's bluffing, I'm getting free money. If he has two pair, set or lower flush, he's certainly going to bet for value anyways. So I decided to check and he walked right into my trap, thought for 30 seconds or so and decided to call (I think he was deciding whether or not to reraise all-in, but thought better of it). He bet the turn and river so small, I was wondering about the true strength of his hand. The only question was if I should I have pushed or raised more. I tried to make it look like a possible bluff that a weaker hand could possibiliy call. I think $240 is a more appropriate price now though. I think based on his passive betting, if I lead on the river, he'd be afraid to raise anything but a flush with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s showing.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Garland

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Garland (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($605.25)
UTG+2 ($572)
MP1 ($777.75)
MP2 ($736.30)
MP3 ($640.60)
CO ($459.45)
Button ($614)
SB ($382.39)
Garland ($648.95)
UTG ($701.70)

Preflop: Garland is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $6, 3 folds, MP3 calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Garland checks.

Flop: ($33) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Garland bets $23, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $23, CO folds, Button calls $23.

Turn: ($102) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Garland checks, MP3 checks, Button bets $45, Garland calls $45, MP3 folds.

River: ($192) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Garland checks, Button bets $40, Garland raises to $200, Button calls $160.

Final Pot: $592
Main Pot: $592, between Button and Garland. > Pot won by Garland ($592).

Results below:
Garland has Ad Qd (flush, ace high).
Button has 3h 5c (straight, six high).
Outcome: Garland wins $592.

Re: Results and thoughts...

your river play is lame

Re: Results and thoughts...

[ QUOTE ]
your river play is lame

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeah. I see too many hands checking behind. I like a river lead.