Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Do you plan on raising a safe turn if both come along?

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

pretty clearly.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

boo.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

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lots of people who used to check and call too much who need to learn to raise and fold most of the time miss situations where a call might be correct...

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I've never been one to check and call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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here, you have unknowns and a draw-heavy board, but your hand might be best. there's a lot of cards that you would hate to see on the turn, but the pot is large. you'd like to see the turn cheaply before seeing whether it's worth getting to showdown.

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I agree with this line of thinking for the most part. Obviously, if I was closing the action, a raise here wouldn't make much sense considering all of the terrible cards the turn could bring for my hand. However, with the opportunity to perhaps fold UTG+1, I am still leaning towards a raise or fold line.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

folding here would be bad. you also don't want this to be capped. plus, the pot will be so huge even 3-bet UTG+1 may call (and may be correct to do so), if he doesn't cap.

further, there's almost no way this gets checked to you on the turn. your raise on the turn will assuredly drive out UTG+1 (assuming a safe card falls) if he doesn't have a monster (or isn't a complete donk). even further, if he wakes up again on the turn, or 3-bets this flop, you will be able to exit the hand (in general) cheaper than if you 3-bet here (since you must call a cap).

you should see the turn, you shouldn't fold. you aren't certain enough about your equity to raise. call seems clear.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Thank you for taking the time to respond so much in this thread; your logic is beginning to sink in.

A flop 3 bet by me here would give UTG+1 10.5:1 immediate odds on a call. He can certainly call this with all but the weakest holdings and, as you pointed out, heightens the chance that this flop get caps.

Raising MP3's bet on the turn, however, throws him 2 bets facing 6.5:1 odds making it incorrect for him to call many holdings (assuming he calls the flop and checks the turn).

Let's say I call and UTG+1 3-bets and MP3 caps. Again I'm facing 2 cold. Now the pot would be laying me just over 13:1 I believe. Of course, at this point, I'd have to assume I'm basically drawing to a running straight and my two remaining tens. An easy fold?

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

you have to peel if it comes back capped... and pray for a T. your implied odds when you do hit will help this thin draw. plus the metagame implications, plus the once in a blue moon that on the turn you get this bet, call, or check, check to you when people are pumping draws or overplaying overcards (or have two pair against which you have some hidden outs) and can't get anyone to fold, all of this means you have to peel even if it's capped coming back.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

I think calling a cap back would be really thin, getting around 12.5:1 with the T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] being pretty dirty.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

i didn't say it wasn't pretty thin. in fact, it's very thin. you're almost certainly beat. but you should still make the call most of the time, methinks.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

How many outs are we giving me here? Any club outs seem pretty dirty at this point, making it hard for me to come up with a number.

Oh and I'd just like to say, up front, that calling 2 cold and then calling 2 cold again on the flop makes me feel like a little girl. I must admit, when I feel like a little girl I also feel pretty (and that's a good feeling). However, when it comes to poker, I'm not overly fond of feeling pretty, and therefore, I have come to the conclusion that I hate this hand.