overbet?
 

for those saying this is an overbet.. wtf are you talking about?

pot is around 270 on the flop, 710 for the turn, and once fsu bets 400 he's c/r 1300 more into a pot of now 1510. which is not an overbet.

Re: overbet?
 

thankyou good grief

this is why its such a great play if he knows our possible hand range

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

The more I think the more I think call. It's obviously possible for the villain to have lots of hands here. But I think his hand range will be heavily weighted towards a big draw with a smaller chance he has a ten and an even smaller almost tiny chance he has AA or KK.

When I do turn checkraises like this the reasoning is that I am shutting out my opponent. Say I have AKss and I bet the turn and he raises, that spot is very tough because I have ace high with 1 card to come with godloads of outs but without immediate odds and folding equity. A CR all in allows you to get your opponent to fold out hands like 88 or whatever and if you get called you still are probably in decent shape.

A CR all in here with AA or KK is a very, very thin value raise IMO. Many opponents will drop JJ or QQ here and I really think if I had AA or KK the best line would probably be to bet the turn and then figure out [censored] with checking and then figuring things out a close second.

The play makes a lot of sense for a hand like a ten because the draw out there may lead a thinking player (or donkey) to (perhaps conveniently) put the check raiser on a draw/bluff and with hands that beat ace high. But I guess this is kinda circuitous logic with what I said before about an opponent playing AA or KK like this.

I guess the final decision should come down to your gut. But the most important thing about this hand IMO is that if you are calling with QQ, you might as well be calling with 77 or A5.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

To him it probbaly seems like you have a pocket pair. Now is he trying to push you off it with air, or trying to get value for his AA/KK hoping you won't believe him?

Tough.

AK of spades makes alot of sense given the betting....I call.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the final decision should come down to your gut. But the most important thing about this hand IMO is that if you are calling with QQ, you might as well be calling with 77 or A5.


[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, a real range of worse then qq but > 77 are present. pfr could easily be doing this with jj or 99 thinking he's best, will entice worse hands to bet / or draws and pop it in.

*i think enough to sway a call on one hand (maybe w/ QQ) to a fold w77.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

You may have a point but your logic seems shaky to me.

[ QUOTE ]
pfr could easily be doing this with jj or 99 thinking he's best, will entice worse hands to bet / or draws and pop it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok worse hands bet, but why raise? Will the worst hand call? I think you've given an argument for checking the turn with JJ but not for check-raising the turn.

I really dont think tooo many people do this with JJ or 99 and if they are they might be bluffing?

-Jason

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You may have a point but your logic seems shaky to me.

[ QUOTE ]
pfr could easily be doing this with jj or 99 thinking he's best, will entice worse hands to bet / or draws and pop it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok worse hands bet, but why raise?

[/ QUOTE ]they would sooner put it in on the turn because there are many cards which could fall to a bluffing or semibluffing hand to make their hand 2nd best

-it's a spot where they have a vulnerable hand, if they believe they have the best hand it's better to stick it in now, UNLESS (only glaring exception I can think of) you're against someone who will bluff no matter what on the river, so it's just a matter of check-calling again.



[ QUOTE ]

Will the worst hand call?

[/ QUOTE ]

if i have JJ, and oyu have one of the latter hands in the QQ->A5 range, it serves as a two way bet. I can either make worse hands call (sometimes) or better hands fold (sometimes) it's rare hero would get screwed both ways, no?

also, you price out any possible semibluff or bluff, (this is a great board for a CTB...) which isn't a bad way to end the hand.

[ QUOTE ]

I think you've given an argument for checking the turn with JJ but not for check-raising the turn.

I really dont think tooo many people do this with JJ or 99 and if they are they might be bluffing?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Other problem with check-calling w/ 99 for example is for river play you let better hands bet for value (trips, etc.) the gray area hands (smaller underpairs or 2nd pair type hands) check behind, and occaisonally you face a bluff. so it's a reverse equity decision on the turn...

I dont know, I would never check-call here with 99, maybe it's a leak of my own.

*also, I doubt villain puts hero on QQ here, fsu (I think) stated he reraises QQ+ most of the time, he is mixing it up here. so JJ probably thinks he's either ahead to a bluff / draw / underpair type hand OR facing trips.

if you c/r all in here w. AKs to generate folding equity amongst smaller pairs technically (if they call) isn't it a neat concept to do the same with 99+...

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

What's his perception of you? Is he going to try and push you around?

I dont think he would. He'd probably only do this with JJ and anything else he's got you.

I fold.

Re: 10-20 Party QQ Hand
 

this hand just screams AKs at me. could just be my donkness at 9 handed ring games, but i put him squarely on that and call. sure ill humor other options, and i dont think by folding you are being a gigantic pussy, but i get my chips in on this turn push. holla

*RESULTS*
 

I got tricky again on everyone.

I was the villian in this hand and I had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I would also make this play with AA/KK sometimes, but its too bad i didnt have it that time.

I failed to hit a K or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and villian who is a pretty well known stars/party player took it down w QQ.

i also wanted to see how others would view that play, and what range of hands they put me on when i make it.

thanks for the responses on this one.


fsuplayer