Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

I am atheist, and you're right about the certainty. I have no reason to believe that there are any god or gods out there. If someone has a degree of disbelief, that has to qualify as a belief, right? The angry atheist disturbs me because I think they'd be happier as agnostics but are choosing to not believe for some external reason.

As for the "faith there is no god" statement, atheism requires no faith whatsoever, as there aren't any acceptable counters. Either that or my faith is 100%, and that degree of certainty makes it feel like I have no faith. Confusing.

The mythological comparison is accurate from my perspective, although I don't know if anyone ever believed in unicorns. But Zeus, Odin and Ra fit the same mold as God. If proof of any of these beings came about (proof being they show up for dinner), I wouldn't choose to worship them, but they would get my respect.

Imagine the shock it would be for Christians and Muslims if the old Greek pantheon "woke up" and made themselves visible. I would be no more affected than if God or Allah started speaking from the heavens. It wouldn't be any more disturbing for me than for a person who heard about hippopotamuses, didn't believe they really existed, and then saw one (more of a "wow" than an "oh, [censored]"), because there is no investment in atheism.

Atheism is a lot more adaptable, since there is no belief. Being wrong is OK.

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

I'm not sure how to interpret your post. Are you asking a question about why Christians (or other believers in some type of God) won't defend their faith, or are you using the example of some who refuse to defend their faith as evidence that their faith is incorrect and therefore, God doesn't exist?

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

I think we need a linguist here to decide this one.

From my dictionary here at work – New World Dictionary of the American Language:

faith: 1. unquestionable belief that does not require proof or evidence.
belief: conviction or acceptance that certain things are true or real
atheist: a person who believes that there is no God.
unquestionable: 1. not to be questioned. 2. with no exception.
agnostic: unknown, unknowable – a person who believes that the human mind cannot know whether there is a God…

I could definitely change my word “faith” to “believe” with no problem.

Whether or not I have to, to be exact, I’ll leave open to further discussion

But it seems we should first decide on what atheism means exactly.

I am using the word atheist as above and adding the assumption that they have an unquestionable belief (faith) that there is no God. Using your definition, how do they differ from agnostics?

If we use your point then no one should not be able to make this statement either, “I believe that there is no God”.

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

Right, if your faith is 100% belief in no God, then it must feel to you that you have no faith. But, unless you are willing to state that you know with 100% accuracy that there is no God (includes any and all possible definitions), then it is with you having 100% faith (or belief) that there is no God that lets you come to these convictions. If you say you know with 100% accuracy and that is what lets you come to these convictions, then you need to publish.

Or you can say, like you did too, you have 0% faith that there is a God. Which seems to be how Jacob is defining atheism. In which case, then you can say I have no faith or that I don’t have faith or that atheism is the absence of faith in a God.

I use the word how the dictionary defined it. Doesn’t mean it is the only way it can be used and your way seems fine to me.

p.s. If you do indeed have 100% faith there is no God, then I envy you. I would be curious as to how you were able to get to that point.

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My hypothesis is that most people want to believe in god, but they also want to believe in a version of god that requires as little effort from them as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hypothesis is pretty spot on. Insight into this universal human condition is given in scripture, Romans chapter 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

To paraphrase: Man knows God. Man wants a god on man's terms. Man becomes vain, thinking himself wise. Man's heart darkens. Man makes and worships a god that he himself has created which is like unto man himself.

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

"If you do indeed have 100% faith there is no God, then I envy you."

I envy you just as much. I constantly search for a way to spark faith, I always look for a way that there could be a god. Obviously religion is of no help in that, it's got to be internal. I've verified that I'm not angry at God, or church, the world or someone who did something to me. He just doesn't fit in anywhere. I don't think people who DO believe are delusional, but I'd definitely be denying myself if I pretended to believe.

So I guess I'm in the 100% club, I just don't see it. I think the 0% faith club is angry about something or bitter (which is most of the atheists I've met, and why I think they are really closet agnostics).

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

Well, don’t envy me too much (but thanks, too) as my faith is probably as much as most, but not enough by my own standards. I have narrowed things down (for myself) to realizing that I “ain’t gonna” find what I am looking for in philosophy, nor even science. They both will fall short for me. Religion alone will too, of course. The only way I see for me to be fulfilled is to one day be able to really take that giant “leap of faith” that is talked about. To go for it with gusto. But, my mind works against (for what I believe is) my own good, so to speak.

My heart says yes, my mind is more than “maybe”, it might even be further than “probably”, I want to get to the “definitely” mindset.

Btw, the avenue I am choosing is with my own Catholicism. For me there is no need to reinvent the wheel. And for the other reason that I love the whole concept of Christianity. And too, I am too old (not that old 49) to learn new tricks.

Best of luck to you, too ( said ironically using the word luck).

p.s. I understand what you mean by the agnostic thing.

Re: Why do so many people who believe in god refuse to discuss it?
 

You ask, why do people refuse to discuss religion?

Because people like you are trying to talk them out of it, which they don't want to hear.

Because their beliefs may be deeply held, and may offend you or someone else present.

You would believe what you do about God and religion whether or not they passionately defended their beliefs or not.

I rarely venture into this forum - it started out with some promise but quickly degenerated into absurdity. It's posts like this that show it. Faith is something that defies reason - it cannot be rationally explained, it involves something more than syllogisms and proofs, and it slips out of our language and its terse abstractions.