Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

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I think the important point is that only humans,(at least for now and at least on this planet) are aware of the fact they will die.

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Evidence please?

eastbay

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

No evidence. If I am wrong then animals are fully conscious. And while I think for now I am right. I believe it is reasonable that KOKO could learn the concept. What will Christians say about that?

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

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I think the important point is that only humans,(at least for now and at least on this planet) are aware of the fact they will die.

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I don't think most people stop to think that one day they will have to die. They certainly don't act like they know it. Most people act as if they were immortal.

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

Define "soul".

eastbay

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

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Imagine some higher order mammal that sees her mate die in great pain over a couple of days. Do you think she will not be able to remember the experience and make the logical leap of imagining herself having the same fate?


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All those Disney movies . . . .

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

I think what needs clarification here is the concept of being self-aware (= consciouness?). This is usually done with a mirror in test subjects. What is the reaction of a human to a mirror or a reflection? What is the reaction of a dog or a dolphin or a cat or a cow or a bird or an ant or an earthworm? And what can correctly be deduced from any reactions or the lack thereof. If I recall correctly, only chimpanzees and perhaps a few other primates have what could be stated has consciousness or self-awareness. As least as best as that can be defined. Perhaps Jane Goodall's study of Chimpanzees has revealed something that could be useful in this discussion.

-Zeno

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

I used to work in slaughterhouses and many of the animals knew what was coming despite tremendous efforts not to alarm them.

Occasionally, one would escape the designated route and enter the kill floor on its own feet, look around at all the others in various states of dismemberment, and have a look in its eye that indicated (to me) a definite emotion of morbid fear. This is different than the kind of fear they exhibited when approached with a cattle prod or similar instrument.

My conclusion is that given enough input and time to comprehend it, they will come to the conclusion that they will probably die.

Of course, I've also seen some of them go and lick blood off a knife and not even realize it.

Maybe only the smart ones ever got out...

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

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I think the important point is that only humans,(at least for now and at least on this planet) are aware of the fact they will die.

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elephant graveyards, etc?

voltaire:

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Animals have these advantages over man: they never hear the clock strike, they die without any idea of death, they have no theologians to instruct them, their last moments are not disturbed by unwelcome and unpleasant ceremonies, their funerals cost them nothing, and no one starts lawsuits over their wills.


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oh, to the OP: animals do not have souls. this includes humans. IMO, of course.

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

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I think the important point is that only humans,(at least for now and at least on this planet) are aware of the fact they will die.

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Why is this "the important point"?

Re: Consciousness/Souls/Animals
 

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Why is this "the important point"?

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DS is insinuating that the origin of the whole concept of a soul is a result of our awareness of death/dying, and a natural reaction to that, a non-truth (note: untrue and false are two diffrent things) that's more comfortable than what reality would seem to indicate (no souls).

i think that was the point anyway.

In an early "xanth" novel written by peirs anthony (total crap, but...) he offered that any being that worries about weather or not they have a soul has one. bs, but intresting.