Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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The villain will raise 50% of his cards from the button. The hero is in the SB with K8o, its a raise or fold scenario however in this case it might be wise to call.


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I would fold and I don't think it is close, especially since it sounds like he must be raising the top 50% of hands, not any 2 cards. However, I think calling is much worse than raising here. You don't want to play K8o from the worst position three-handed.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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you have to worry about BB. Occassionally he wakes up with a real hand. Even if he doesn't, just having him come along sucks.

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Yep, BB is the main problem. Second problem is that - if u listen to Bob Ciaffone - u need about as good hand to go to war from SB as the button because you being out of position is worth the SB.

We got worse hand then button we got BB to worry about. Easy fold. If button is extremly bad postflop I can see myself calling here, but then we are not talking about defending, but about using the fact that u play a worthless player.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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The villain will raise 50% of his cards from the button. The hero is in the SB with K8o, its a raise or fold scenario however in this case it might be wise to call.


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I would fold and I don't think it is close, especially since it sounds like he must be raising the top 50% of hands, not any 2 cards. However, I think calling is much worse than raising here. You don't want to play K8o from the worst position three-handed.

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I agree that limping is not the thing to do, this is generally a raise or fold situation. I have always folded in the past, but against this specific player I began to think if this is in fact the best option, or am I missing out on an opportunity to punish the button for attempting the steal play over and over again. Thanks for your input guys, I will continue to fold.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

most of the bets go in postflop. don't tell me about preflop edge. who care about that anyway? you can outplay this guy postflop and your hand can often make it to showdown, so it's a good 3-bet. the BB is important here though, as there have been many times where I've 3-bet light without looking at the BB, and ended up 3 ways with a bad hand

no, it's not an easy spot. you won't get to bet the flop and take it down very often. but you can make your way to a showdown and push your hand when it's best

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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most of the bets go in postflop. don't tell me about preflop edge.

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If you're three-betting, you're going to have 7SBs in the pot going into the flop (1SB of which is dead money from the BB).

In the majority of cases, the flop is going to miss you, so if you want to take the "outplay the opponent from OOP without a pair or an ace" approach, the post-flop action is either going to be bet-raise-three bet-fold (6SBs), or possibly, check-bet-check raise-call-lead turn-fold (6SBs).

In either of these "outplay" situations, the amount of money going in postflop, is roughly equal to the amount going in preflop.

By contrast, obviously when you hit a pair against a light steal raiser, there is a much greater likelihood that you take the hand to showdown. (I certainly dont think you can go past 4th street without a pair against this sort of opponent.) However because a pair may well commit you to a showdown, this is precisely why preflop edge matter--paying off on a weak bottom pair or, even worse, pushing a dominated top pair is an EV disaster.

I dont think you can ignore preflop equity for this reason.

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you can outplay this guy postflop

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This statement puzzles me. When you hit the flop, yes, I can see where "outplaying" the bad guy comes in (i.e., you'll either recognize when you're ahead and value bet him all the way, or in more ambiguous situations, you'll check-call him and let him bluff off his money).

But when you miss the flop (the majority of the time), the only way to "outplay" an aggressive opponent is to either outspew him, or to be uber-passive with a hand that somehow is good at showdown (e.g., small pair, ace high, etc.) The passive approach doesnt make sense to me since K8o UI isn't a showdown-able hand; the out-spewing approach, is speculative and high variance at best.

So like I said originally, I think that trying to "outplay" this guy means that on the majority of flops, you're going to need to spew. Maybe this is marginally +EV; it is undeniably high variance. I pass on these "edges".