Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

In order to win a big pot, you have to build a big pot. That means betting. You have to bet that flop, even if small. Bet the flop, then the turn, then the river. That's how you build a pot. Somebody with the nut flush draw will probably call, and you'll often get two pair too. Sure plenty of times everyone will fold, but the times that you win a massive pot will make it worth it. You have to give them a chance to put some money in that pot. Checking the flop and check calling the turn is not accomplishing building the pot. And when you do do that, you then have to over bet the river in order to get some real money in the pot. Bet the flop, bet the turn, and then bet the river.

Edit: I also would add that flopping a straight flush is no different than flopping a set on an harmless board. Your winning percentage is still huge and you need to think about maximum value. Flopping the absolute nuts means nothing. If everyone folds the flop so be it, but you have to get value out of this hand when someone actually has somethng. Furthermore, betting out gives no one any clue as to how strong you are. They might actually play back at you representing the nuts. Play the straight flush the same way you would a set on a draw free board. Bet!

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I like check-calling all the way down to the river, prey another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits and someone has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I lead the river though.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

i lead flop

what are you afraid of folding out? i wouldn't worry about trying to bluff catch here

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
In order to win a big pot, you have to build a big pot. That means betting. You have to bet that flop, even if small. Bet the flop, then the turn, then the river. That's how you build a pot. Somebody with the nut flush draw will probably call, and you'll often get two pair too. Sure plenty of times everyone will fold, but the times that you win a massive pot will make it worth it. You have to give them a chance to put some money in that pot. Checking the flop and check calling the turn is not accomplishing building the pot. And when you do do that, you then have to over bet the river in order to get some real money in the pot. Bet the flop, bet the turn, and then bet the river.

Edit: I also would add that flopping a straight flush is no different than flopping a set on an harmless board. Your winning percentage is still huge and you need to think about maximum value. Flopping the absolute nuts means nothing. If everyone folds the flop so be it, but you have to get value out of this hand when someone actually has somethng. Furthermore, betting out gives no one any clue as to how strong you are. They might actually play back at you representing the nuts. Play the straight flush the same way you would a set on a draw free board. Bet!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I just disagree with this. There is absolutely a time for slowing down and letting the other guy make his hand, and when ever single card on the flop helped you, the probability that the other guy hit has to go way down, and this just argues for slowing down and hoping he catches up. If the flop hit him hard, too, he'll lead, and if it didn't, betting is likely to drive him out.

Betting as a general rule is, of course, correct. But there are times to slow down and, at the very least, there is a strong argument that this is one of them.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
betting is likely to drive him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe AJ or KJ, although i still think you'll get a call on the flop.

but he will stay with 2-pair or better, A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], maybe K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], maybe straight draw

there's nothing better than charging some one to draw dead against you, and then stack him when he 'hits'

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
i lead flop

what are you afraid of folding out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much 70 of the 80 legit starting hands. This was an unraised pot; villain/victim could have just about anything. Suppose he limped with ATo? Suppose he has hearts? suppose he has a pair of fours?

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i lead flop

what are you afraid of folding out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much 70 of the 80 legit starting hands. This was an unraised pot; villain/victim could have just about anything. Suppose he limped with ATo? Suppose he has hearts? suppose he has a pair of fours?

[/ QUOTE ]\\

Lead for half the pot on every street. This will get most hands to come along and build the pot at the same time.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

ATo might call, but my question now is, if you check to him you think there's any chance he'll bet those?

you might catch a bluff here and there, but i doubt anyone would fire two barrels, so i focus on maximizing my win when he's got something

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
ATo might call, but my question now is, if you check to him you think there's any chance he'll bet those?

you might catch a bluff here and there, but i doubt anyone would fire two barrels, so i focus on maximizing my win when he's got something

[/ QUOTE ]

ATo might call, absolutely, and might even bluff once or twice. My point is only that this was an unraised pot and a flop that scares the bejeesus out of most starting hands. Those that won't be terribly scared will lead, as likely as not, and the overwhelming majority of starting hands will insta-fold to any serious bet at all.

The more we talk about it, the more sure I am that slowing down here was the right way to play. (I hope you're still with us, PoBoy).

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I'm still here, I'm just kind of sitting back watching everyone's discussion.

My thinking was kind of that in a 4-handed game, the likely hood of me running into a good 2nd best hand was slim and my best shot was to let the villain bluff at it.