Re: I hate this spot
 

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If we were OOP (but then he couldn't donkbet us...whatever) then I'd raise + lead the turn + riv barring dangerous cards.

Surf

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So if you are OOP, lets say...you bet, he raises...do u 3bet or call?

Re: I hate this spot
 

What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

Re: I hate this spot
 

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What about calling the flop and raising the turn intending to take the free showdown. If he three bets your toast and gives you a chance to fold a better hand.

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Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

Surf

Re: I hate this spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Intellectually this line is appealing, however:

1. We're never folding a better hand here HU.

2. We can get to showdown for the same price, and be 100% sure that we didn't get bet out of the pot by a worse hand.

3. We encourage a bluffer to continue bluffing. Raising the turn lets him get away 1 bet cheaper if he would have taken a shot at the river.

Aggression is the mantra of these forums, and rightly so. However, there are times when the best play is to call all 3 postflop streets. This is one of them IMHO.

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Good post. I was curious about the free showdown play myself but you cleared things up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Haupt_234

Re: I hate this spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If we were OOP (but then he couldn't donkbet us...whatever) then I'd raise + lead the turn + riv barring dangerous cards.

Surf

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So if you are OOP, lets say...you bet, he raises...do u 3bet or call?

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When I played the 5/10 i'd call this down against an unknown.

At the 10/20 I'll 3bet this. Flop raises mean so much less there - it could be any pair, reasonable draw, some not-so-reasonable draws, a "slowplayed" AK or AQ, or just some crap that the guy wants to bet you ot of the pot with. Because of this we're much more likely to have the best hand,and 3betting is good for our shania, people will be less likely to take shots at us(hopefully).

Surf

Re: I hate this spot
 

I've been going back and forth about the best line.

But the idea that a certain line is best because it ensures a showdown - or a cheaper showdown - has been bothering me lately. I often find myself using the same logic. Yet, I think it's wrong to make that the overriding goal.

Having said that, I still don't know what line I prefer here against an unknown. I guess I prefer that the situation only arise against a "known." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I hate this spot
 

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Uh, calls. It's not that hard. If you've got a read on what he bets, then it's an easier decision, but against unknowns, you're up against A6 and 75 and often random bluffs frequently enough to see a showdown.

Rob

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I think he's got a 6 often enough that you're leaving bets on the table by just calling.

Re: I hate this spot
 

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But the idea that a certain line is best because it ensures a showdown - or a cheaper showdown - has been bothering me lately. I often find myself using the same logic. Yet, I think it's wrong to make that the overriding goal.

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In most games, yes. Maximizing EV by raising when we think our hand is best is critical. However, in my experience at the 10/20 encouraging bluffs can be worth just as much, or more, than a flop raise when we may have the best hand(certainly not every situation, but especially the more marginal ones). Players love to bluff here, and once started they rarely stop - I had a player bluff-4bet me on the flop with A4o UI last night, and he continuation-bet the turn and river.

Raising is great when the other player will call down with worse hands and 3bet with better ones. IMO calling is great when the other player will continue bluffing with nearly all worse hands, while he would have folded many of those worse hands if we maintained aggression.

Additionally, while the players are quite bluff-happy I don't relish the thought of calling down a flop 3bet and 2 more BB to get to SD - i'll be right sometimes, but I'd much rather have let him bet away his chips from the get-go, because he still 3bets a Jack and 2 pair etc.

Surf

Re: I hate this spot
 

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Villain is unkkown to me.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero says [censored] and.....

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If UTG had a J then he would most likely attempt the check raise. Usually the donk bet signifys an under card to the top pair in this situation. The Hero is ahead, feel free to raise the flop.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I hate this spot
 

MOST people that have a pair of jacks or better will slowplay till the turn and checkraise you then or go for the checkraise on the flop. So the donkbet on the flop is a pretty good indication that your hand is good (against most players).

So the main decision you want to make is whether to raise the turn to try to get him out of the pot so he doesn't catch up on the river or whether to let him keep bluffing/betting the worst hand through the river. Against an unknown I would just call down. However, that is why it is nice to have a read on a player, so that you can raise the turn (to give your hand some modicum of protection) and know if you can safely fold fold to a turn 3bet or river donk bet.