Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

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Yeah. SB just bet into a field of 6, there's a very good chance he has you beat. Couple that the fact that the board is very drawy and there are 5 loose players behind you, one of whom could also already have you beat and many of whom could easily have you beat by the river, your position is really bad and your hand is only mediocre so your implied odds are terrible but the implied odds you're offering your opponents are good, even making the field face 2 cold is probably not enough to stop lots of overcard hands calling and you're going to pay off a lot of the time an overcard falls, when you are behind (which I think is often) you have probably 3 outs but when ahead your hand is very vulnerable, I think it's a fold.

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I maybe do not expect to win this hand when I see the flop. But at the same time, an unknown SB opening the betting is not going to make me fold yet.

You might be ahead, you have a few outs if you are behind. Also I think this hand is pretty easy to get away from when it does go bad.

That said, I could see in NL, where this could devlope into a fairly ugly situation. But in limit, you are probably not going to put too many bets in the pot with this hand when you are/get beat.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1. Check/fold looks best

Hand 2. The turn checkraise looks good to face MP with 2 and because the T that came improves your kicker and likely means you will split the pot with CO who probably has an ace that outkicked you before. I'm not sure what MP is hanging around with when he calls. I hope it's not hearts. I think check is the way to go here. If MP bets, I probably call but with reduced expectations.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

1) Check-call.
2) Check-call. I do not like the turn check-raise at all - why did you feel it was good? You're praying for a split pot. What do you put CO on that you beat? Or are you focusing on getting MP3 outta there? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Hand 2 check-raise
 

Hi,

Everyone is questioning the turn CR on hand 2. Some explination.

My read on CO was he was value raising an ace, since there was no draw and frankly any ace on that board should be raised for value.

I'm a habitual bluffer from the BB into 2 LP limpers, so I will also bet a 4 here. I know they don't have 4's, but I'm the BB, I could have a 4. So onto the turn...

The T, almost always counterfits everyone's kicker if they did have an ace, so I'm 'freerolling' my bluff of having the 4, so I CR the turn representing an 4. It is 2/4 and nobody folds, but I can dream can't I?

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

I'm pretty sure this kinda hand play is right out of SSHE. I also would never have made it before reading SSHE.

You have TP and a backdoor draw into a field of limpers. You raise to face the field with two cold on the flop since its likely you have the best hand now that becomes the worst hand on the turn as an over card hurts you.

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

I think we can agree the the sb limper has either a strong hand or a strong draw.

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Overcard hands (not holding a diamond) like KJ/AQ are not calling 2SBs profitably on the flop. Folding them really helps increase Heros chances of winning by showdown.

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I agree that they're not calling 2sbs profitably, but that doesn't mean they're not calling. "Aha," you might say, "if they're calling unprofitably then that means we are profiting." That's not necessarily true though, if the sb has a strong hand he is profiting off of them and us and if he has a strong draw then he is siphoning off a lot of our profit because he wins a lot of the time when they don't improve but he does.

And this is just talking about the hand like the only players who can have a good hand are us and the sb, when of course that's not the case and there is a high chance that one of the 5 players behind us will have us beat by the river.

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Why do you feel that Hero is forced to pay off when an over card hits?

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I didn't say see showdown, but say you raise and two people cold call and the turn is any overcard. Are you check-folding? And if you bet and don't get raised, well you're in a tough situation on the river and prone to error while allowing any opponents in position to play the river almost perfectly.

And let me reiterate just how bad your implied odds are, say someone 3-bets the flop, do they have diamonds, an oesd, a set, a worse top pair, a better top pair, a pair with a high diamond? It's very difficult to tell and you're in a very tough spot for the rest of the hand.

Or what if there are coldcallers and sb 3-bets the flop? If he's aggro enough to bet a strong draw into that many players, he's probably aggro enough to 3-bet the flop multiway with a draw. But of course he'd also play a strong made hand this way. So what are you going to do, call a blank turn and allow hands behind you to see the river for one bet (and the pot will be so huge by then that almost any hand is profitably calling)? Raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet while taking a free showdown? But you don't really want to fold to a 3-bet, the pot is going to be very big and the equity you're giving up even if you have only a few outs is quite a lot. And what if someone behind you cold-calls?

Obviously you'd need more specifics to answer these questions exactly but what I'm saying is that there are a lot of ways for this hand to go wrong which is expensive, and not that many for it to go right, and when it does go right then you're frequently going to not win all that much.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

I'm not praying, I *KNOW* its a split pot.

MP3 called on the on an ace high flop and then over called. He has an ace or is donating to the pot. The Turn CR has some chance of him folding another ace or getting a 2BB donation since he apparently is in love with his hand.

Either way, someone is donating 2BB to this pot and its not me.

For a more detailed explination see my reply marked "2-hand hand check-raise".

Later,
MarkV.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hand 1 is an easy check and see what happens kind of situation. I might call 1 bet from one player depending on where the bet came from. I would not call 2 bets, or a bet and a call.

In Hand 2, I don't understand the turn c/r. CO has either a 4 or an A and he's not folding either of these holdings, MP3 could have a wide range of hands. Once the 10 hits the turn, you are splitting with other weak Aces. Plus, given a likely split w/the CO, why do we want to knock out MP3 with something like middle pair.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Also with regard to the flop play in Hand 1, see this thread, specifically the comment by Sklansky.

Re: When to Value bet when to not Value bet?
 

Hi,

This pot will be huge by showdown if things go wrong or right. When I do win I get payed off handsomly because of the flop raise ties everyone to the pot.

They can play their hand perfectly on the river when I check, butI can only *slightly* misplay my hand. Not value betting middle pair into 5 players is a minor error as is folding middle pair here given the field size and the draw completing river.

Later,
MarkV.