Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd actually do it, but I'm kind of thinking folding might be best. In any event, I think I would be deciding between that and calling.


[/ QUOTE ]

don't you think it's a little unnatural for the nut flush to raise the turn here when there is a potential caller to act behind him? almost everybody slowplays the nuts in this spot. i definitely don't think i can fold, at least not yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some (though certainly not all) players save their slowplaying for the flop and abandon such ideas on the turn.

So that's my half-hearted attempt to defend what I wrote about folding. Anyway, you make a good argument.

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

I would have raised this flop.

Call down from the turn but if you get checked to on the river bet.

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd actually do it, but I'm kind of thinking folding might be best. In any event, I think I would be deciding between that and calling.


[/ QUOTE ]

don't you think it's a little unnatural for the nut flush to raise the turn here when there is a potential caller to act behind him? almost everybody slowplays the nuts in this spot. i definitely don't think i can fold, at least not yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the decission is between calling and folding. i would call. the bet doesn't mean much imo. the raise is very probably from a big diamond, but might very well not be the nuts.
if almost anybody slowplays the nuts on the turn in a situation like this, i am an exception. any set and big diamond will call about any bet and that's why i wouldn't slowplay the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

*edit* and i would raise the flop for a free card.

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would raise the flop for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

oh, i had a question. say you call, which is the appropriate play i think, the river is a rag and it is checked to you. do you bet?

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would raise the flop for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

It is possibly for value, but I think there are other reasons to raise.

The reason I say it's only "possibly" for value, even though we have a 2nd nut flush draw, two overcards, and a gutshot, is that there's a preflop 3-bettor with an approximate AA-TT/AK range in the hand. (Possibly it's wider, especially if BB was trying to get heads-up with his preflop 3-bet, but I suspect most 3/6 players will just 3-bet whatever they usually 3-bet in this spot preflop.)

Also, a one-card flush draw to the king is not as strong as a high two-card flush draw. If the ace of diamonds happens to be out there (and it's fair to assume, for instance, that BB has high cards, and we know UTG loves to play aces), then that cuts into our equity substantially. I'm certainly not assuming a better flush draw is out there, but it will be sometimes, and not all that infrequently. (BB did 3-bet preflop, and UTG found some reason to call the flop.)

Within the (admittedly rather narrow) range I gave BB, the value of our overcards is compromised. Only versus JJ are both overcards good, and catching an overcard will in many cases just give us a second-best hand.

So, yeah, with our 17 uncertain outs, we'll improve to TPGK, a straight, or a flush almost 60 percent of the time, but . . .

Hmm. You know, on second thought, I'm thinking a raise probably is a pretty solid value raise. I'm not sure how much we should discount our outs, but discounting them past 9 would be a bit much, I think.

Since BB has represented a big hand, there is some danger of getting 3-bet and (if UTG then folds) ending up heads-up versus that big hand, possibly with very few outs.

But, also, he might even fold a diamondless AK, or maybe UTG will now fold (you never know), and we'll have a shot at taking down the pot with a turn semi-bluff. (Hmm. This paragraph is starting to seem very optimistic to me.)

I guess one question becomes, if we raise the flop and are just called and go the turn 3-handed, do we fire again on the turn if checked to on a blank? I'm not sure.

But I think I do like a flop raise.

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh, i had a question. say you call, which is the appropriate play i think, the river is a rag and it is checked to you. do you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would.

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

I like the call on the flop because if you catch a diamond on the turn you will probably be bet into again. However I'm having a hard time putting BB on a hand that doesn't have the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in it. I would probably call here as I think YHIG enough of the time to merit calling, and am betting if checked to. Tough call for me.

Re: here\'s one - maybe interesting turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh, i had a question. say you call, which is the appropriate play i think, the river is a rag and it is checked to you. do you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would. I think it would be extremely risky for the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to go for a check/raise here and I'm definitely charging a lower flush draw.