Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

is this chubby anthony again? if so, its an easy fold.

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

Unless rory had given some indication that this villan was tricky/aggressive post flop (which he did not) this is a fold

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

I have been told to stop folding top pair. I can't fold this. I play bad. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

with a flush draw it doesn't apply, but think about how much this sucks:

you have 76... flop is Q43 and the turn is a 2. you're checked to. say there are 4 bets in the pot after you bet. if he checkraises you can be pretty sure your overcard outs are no good. now he checkraises and you're getting 6-1 with a gut shto and have to fold. along the same lines, sometimes a chcekraise will give you 9-1, and you end up paying 2 bets for your gutter. you've priced yourself into calling which sucks. it is along the same lines as (and I made this mistake yesterday) raising a donkbet and pricing yourself into paying off a 3-bet to draw to a gutter

soemtimes trying to induce a fold just isn't worth it. now say the pot is somehow 12 bets instead. it's probably worth taking a shot since you can call anyway.

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

I think the general rule of thumb for turn play in position against a tough tricky opponent is to check if being CRd is going to give you a tough decision. If you can easily fold or your hand is strong enough to call or reraise, then bet. If your hand has enough value that folding to a raise is going to suck (either because you will be folding the best hand some % of the time, or you forfeit a reasonable shot at winning), then check.

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think we're both giving this guy too much credit

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Your analysis is very complex -- I'm sure many good 2+2ers here would have trouble undergoing this thought process.

I still can't make the river fold, though.

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

Here's more.. quoting Andrew Prock's <a href="http://headsupclub.com/aprock/">blog</a>:

Heads-up on the turn:

Classes of hands to bet when you have position versus a tricky player.

- strong hands
- weak hands with no draws
- medium hands with strong draws

Classes of hands to check:

- medium hands with no draws
- weak hands with draws

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

good fold. top pair is not good against a player of that nature. One would be inclined to call that river raise suspecting he might be pushing u off on a failed spade draw - but, he gives too many free cards. That means he loves getting free cards himself and he is not betting his FD on the turn, he is betting something else. In fact such a staight forward player would certainly play 56, 33, 44, 22, 88 like that. I doubt he checked J8 on the flop.

Re: Joe Tall is This What You Were Talking About
 

Live I make this lay down all the time; online less often. I think a river situation like this somewhat defines the differences in the platforms.