Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

Wouldn't a turn bet here (or a check raise) be for the same purpose as the cap bet on the flop? You have twelve outs if you assume that they are all live. You are getting twelve to on on your bets/raise. This would be a value bet/raise to build the pot.

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

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I don't usually play a flush draw that agressively.

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Against 1 or 2 opponents, I don't think he would. The payoff, when he makes his hand, with this many players in is huge, though.

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

I'd call but I don't think you're winning. I think raising here would just be spewing.

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

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Hmmm. Let me see if I have this straight. You are value betting with the cap bet because your odds of making the flush are better than the pot odds? Is that what makes the cap bet correct?

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Actually the pot odds don't really affect it, it's more about pot equity. The idea is that 35% of the time you'll make your flush. So if you bet and get 3+ callers you are putting in 25% of the money but winning more than 25% of the time, essentially making money on every bet that goes in.

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

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Hmmm. Let me see if I have this straight. You are value betting with the cap bet because your odds of making the flush are better than the pot odds? Is that what makes the cap bet correct?

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almost. use pots odds to determine whether you should call a bet. the reason to actively/bet or raise is determined more by pot equity (simply defined, how often will i win the pot by the river). in this case, i will make my flush 35% of the time (assuming for the sake of simplicity i will win when i hit). if i get 2 callers, i am only contributing 33% of the money to the pot, so i have a slight edge (i win 35% but only put in 33%). if i get 3 or more callers, my edge is dramatically higher -- so i am raising for value, but not because of pot odds.

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Maybe this is a weakness in my game. I don't usually play a flush draw that agressively.

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yes, it is a weakness in your game. flush draws are huge money makers in loose passive microlimit games (and other games too).

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

Once you cap the flop, I'm inclined to lead out the turn. Having done that, I lead the river as well. Oh, and river the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

The way you played it, I think you have to puke in the trashcan, punch the cat and call to close the action. Nobody's folding to one more, here, and I don't think you're winning this enough of the time against 2 opponents to make a raise for value.

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

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Wouldn't a turn bet here (or a check raise) be for the same purpose as the cap bet on the flop? You have twelve outs if you assume that they are all live. You are getting twelve 1to on on your bets/raise. This would be a value bet/raise to build the pot.

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Not quite it's a little different. Even assuming all of your outs are good (which the gutshot ones are very possibly not), there is only one card to come so you will only hit one of your draws around 25% of the time (20% if you only count the flush outs). For this, you'd need 3-4 callers to break even.

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

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I'd call but I don't think you're winning. I think raising here would just be spewing.

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Second that. Was it Ax[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Ace-rag, or neither?

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

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Maybe this is a weakness in my game. I don't usually play a flush draw that agressively.

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yes, it is a weakness in your game. flush draws are huge money makers in loose passive microlimit games (and other games too).

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Not to mention the effect it has on opponents who don't realize this "He is a LAG, capped the flop with 92! I'm calling him down from now on.."

Re: overcall, raise, or fold in big pot?
 

Wow, I think that I just learned something very important that I did not realize before. I am sure that it was obvious but humor me while I restate:

When calling: You compare your call amount to the size of the pot to get pot odds and then you compare that to the number of outs you have to see if you make a call. (leaving out implied odds for simplicity)

When betting on a draw: You compare the number off calls you think that you will get with your number of outs to see if it is a value bet. Note that this does not include tactics such as getting second pair to fold.

This is kind of like pot-odds but is kind of call-odds. Does this make sense?