Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

I agree pushing is the right thing, and I'll do it all the time in this situation.

He's trying to argue that, whatever hand the BB has, he has Pot odds to call, (he'll be at most behind 3:2, and with his stack, that gives him odds to call). He then goes on to say, if he has odds to call (whether he's behind or not), he's making money making that call.

He goes on to say fold is the right play. I argue till I'm blue in the face he's nuts, but he doesn't listen. I think he's just trying to save face by arguing this since he made this proclamation with other players at the table.

I was trying to get other smart poker players opinion so I could show him what other people thought.

Any validity to his argument? I give it none.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

First, he doesn't have pot odds to call any 2. Second, getting called is bad, but you've got a discount from the SB. Third, Villain's probably not calling any 2. Fourth, folding this is moronic.

But, more importantly, you need to start posting hands that aren't about proving you're right, but can improve your play because you don't know what to do. That's where you can really earn a lot of money of 2+2.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

Both the push and the call can be correct, you know.

If we were playing poker with the cards flipped over so everyone could calculate the pot odds it would be another thing.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

It doesn't sound like this argument is helpful for either one of you.

Perhaps someday one of you will see the light...

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Luminous

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

I like a limp-reraise here.
<font color="white"> (Sarcasm) </font>

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's trying to argue that, whatever hand the BB has, he has Pot odds to call, (he'll be at most behind 3:2, and with his stack, that gives him odds to call). He then goes on to say, if he has odds to call (whether he's behind or not), he's making money making that call.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in limit if I know someone is on a flush draw and I bet into them and they are getting better than 4:1 on the call I shouldn't bet because they are making money on the call.

Well, I was yelling at the guy at the table...
 

that there's no way my play wasn't the right play. He's really really hard headed, and will never admit he's wrong. He's still a close friend of mine, and I really don't think he'd lay it down; like I said, I think he's trying to save face and just won't admit defeat.

I just wanted something to show him and say "see?"

Lastchance, I will post a problem I had, instead of a "prove I'm right" scenario.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

You friend needs to understand this:
[ QUOTE ]
Both the push and the call can be correct

[/ QUOTE ]
The blinds give sufficient overlay.

Is it correct to bet the turn when you have top pair and your opponent has a flush draw? Of course, you are getting your bet paid back 80% of the time. Is correct for your opponent to call? Of course, if he is getting 4:1 on his call.

The pot gives sufficient overlay.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

To reply to his arguement, more than one player can be 'making money' in a hand, because there are already 1200 chips in the pot. As a matter of fact, once the blinds are in, everyone at the table has a +EV for that hand.

edit: If you want to use some numbers to make the logic clear to him, give him a scenario where 2 players start with 1000 chips each, and the blinds are 900/950. It is very obviously correct for both players to get all-in no matter what cards they hold.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

Here's my argument .... the player is absolutely rock solid. The only way you get a call is if he has suited connectors, suited hoppers or Beernutts in a horrible situation. So, essentially, you're risking your whole tournament for one big blind while at the same time giving the other guy odds to make just about any call.

If the guy believes Beernutts has AQo, he is STILL correct in calling (technically) with 10 8s. Why would you want to put yourself in this kind of position with A2s? If beernutts gets called, he has no more than a 57:43 fav AT VERY BEST cause the guy is not calling with anything other than suited connectors/hoppers or better. Why would you put your tournament on the line for something like this?

Sure enough, as usual, the guy turned over JJ and beernutts spiked his ace. I would personally just rather wait for a more solid hand against a more loose player or at least one where I would be getting odds just as the other guy was in this situation. This was game where the other 3 players were terrible and beernutts has a solid rep. He coulda been more patient imo. If the A2s was "such an easy push", what would y'all do with K2s????