Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

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I was thinking something similar to this as well - that he's counting hearts as bluff outs (probably semi-bluff assuming he has a heart). His limp seems odd to me - and knowing that he knows you're capable of laying down hands that you bet/raise with (eg. your first hand against him), I think he's limping to ... steal the pot from you if he misses.



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I've been at the table about 18-30 hands and have put in two pre-flop raises. Folded to a reraise and won uncontested the second time. Do you really think he is tailoring his entire play around me in this hand? The BB is the big stack at the table BTW.

I think it's preposterous to think that Fishman is setting up a bluff from middle position based around the fact that I'm in the small blind. The entire above statement really doesn't make any sense to me.

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try to hit something

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This is why he is limping. Hence the hand range that I gave him in my posts above.

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

I would have seriously considered the possibily that he had either AA with a heart or KK with a heart.

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

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I was thinking something similar to this as well - that he's counting hearts as bluff outs (probably semi-bluff assuming he has a heart). His limp seems odd to me - and knowing that he knows you're capable of laying down hands that you bet/raise with (eg. your first hand against him), I think he's limping to ... steal the pot from you if he misses.



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I've been at the table about 18-30 hands and have put in two pre-flop raises. Folded to a reraise and won uncontested the second time. Do you really think he is tailoring his entire play around me in this hand? The BB is the big stack at the table BTW.

I think it's preposterous to think that Fishman is setting up a bluff from middle position based around the fact that I'm in the small blind. The entire above statement really doesn't make any sense to me.

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Okay - maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that he limped knowing that nobody else would come into the pot and that he could then steal it from you. His open limp to me either means monster PP or some marginal hand (like the range you described) that is looking to get a good flop. However, Fischman is a very good player, and if he has something like K/Jo, he may call your check-raise and think that he a) has the best hand with TPGK, b) can hit a K to improve, c) count hearts as possible outs. Then, he watches your reaction on the turn (I mean looks for a tell, not just paying attention to your bet) and if he senses weakness, he can push into you. And yeah, I know you're going to say that Fischman must assume that most people who have played the hand the way you have will not fold to his turn push, but some will.

In regards to your thoughts about inflection points, yeah, I think this is near the point where you have to chip up or go home. Fischman realizes this too, so although he may have the hearts, I'm just saying that there is also a distinct possibility that Fischman realizes that he has to chip up or go home too. The fact that Fischman knows you can lay down a hand just adds to the possibility that he's semi- or fully bluffing the hearts here.

I don't know how the rest of the table was playing - maybe 12xBB was enough of a stack that you felt you could really make a run for the FT. But in my mind, you have to call this because of the chance that you're ahead against his TPGK, ahead against his semi-bluff, or that you still have some out against his flush.

I hope that clears up some of what I was trying to say before.

ts-

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

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I think you ran into problems on the turn because of the flop raise. A slightly smaller raise leaves you much more wiggle room on the turn while still giving fishman incorrect odds to call for a flush, since you will be betting the turn and he only gets to see one more card. I'd raise to 900 or so there.

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Would Fishman be so incorrect to call for the flush? Yes he'd only be getting 3.3:1 immediate odds, but couldn't he figure that you'd be quite likely to bet out on the turn even if a flush card came?

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

I think when you combine your 4 outs against the flush and the possibility Fishman is bluffing, semibluffing with a high heart, or thinks he is ahead with a lesser made hand, it is a call considering the pot odds.

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

I read a few of the replys and no one mentioned what they thought Fish put YOU on. I think your check raise on the flop shows real strength, either two pair, a set, or a flush draw. When the flush card hits on fourth street and you lead out, I am really thinking Fish puts your most likely hand at J-something of hearts. I don't put Fish on AA or KK with a heart (a flop reraise certainly would have been appropriate with those hands, hearts or none). I also don't think Fish would expect you to lay down a hand that he put you on on the flop (two pair, set, now made flush). IMHO, I don't believe this is a semi-bluff. I am thinking Fish is expecting a call here. I think you're beat (but then again, all my friends tell me I'm weak-tight, so maybe I just have no balls). Harrington or not, I make this lay down.

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

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I read a few of the replys and no one mentioned what they thought Fish put YOU on. I think your check raise on the flop shows real strength, either two pair, a set, or a flush draw. When the flush card hits on fourth street and you lead out, I am really thinking Fish puts your most likely hand at J-something of hearts. I don't put Fish on AA or KK with a heart (a flop reraise certainly would have been appropriate with those hands, hearts or none). I also don't think Fish would expect you to lay down a hand that he put you on on the flop (two pair, set, now made flush). IMHO, I don't believe this is a semi-bluff. I am thinking Fish is expecting a call here. I think you're beat (but then again, all my friends tell me I'm weak-tight, so maybe I just have no balls). Harrington or not, I make this lay down.

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Or, Fischman is stealing on the flop and SB resteals. Fisch calls and blows him off his hand on scary turn cards, with hero making a nice continuating looking bet that's pretty small given pot size.

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

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I read a few of the replys and no one mentioned what they thought Fish put YOU on. I think your check raise on the flop shows real strength, either two pair, a set, or a flush draw. When the flush card hits on fourth street and you lead out, I am really thinking Fish puts your most likely hand at J-something of hearts. I don't put Fish on AA or KK with a heart (a flop reraise certainly would have been appropriate with those hands, hearts or none). I also don't think Fish would expect you to lay down a hand that he put you on on the flop (two pair, set, now made flush). IMHO, I don't believe this is a semi-bluff. I am thinking Fish is expecting a call here. I think you're beat (but then again, all my friends tell me I'm weak-tight, so maybe I just have no balls). Harrington or not, I make this lay down.

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Or, Fischman is stealing on the flop and SB resteals. Fisch calls and blows him off his hand on scary turn cards, with hero making a nice continuating looking bet that's pretty small given pot size.

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Yup, the check-raise on the flop looks like a resteal against a limper, and the turn bet is a continuation bet that is small enough that the OP can still get off the hand and have some chips to play with.

ts-

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

When you checkraise, it will probably look like you have hit youre two pairs or highest pair with a decent kicker, but are afraid of hearts. Would you chekc-raise a flush draw and face an allin??.. not likely.. if you were on a draw, you would probably call on the flop..

and when a heart come on the turn, you bet an amount that leave you some room for still surviving the turnament, which is probably what fishman sees.. he know that you probably doesn't have a flush.. due to the check-raise.. and he knows that you are afraid, since you didnt go all in.. so he sees weakness..

I would think that he have a couple of outs.. maybe a heart and a pocket..

I would have looked at my hand after the flop and checkraised all-in take it down there and then.. and hope he didn't flopped his set.. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman
 

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I think when he calls your flop raise he is counting hearts as bluff outs so often and pulls the trigger on this turn so often that you should be instacalling pretty much always.

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This is the biggest argument for a call.

His raising your turn bet and giving you 'interesting' odds to call off the rest is the most telling aspect of the hand, though.

I think it's hazy enough in terms of its meaning to make it a close call, but a call nonetheless.

-kyo