Re: Blind defense
 

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i like to 3-bet pf against most of the people opening in CO or button because the range of hands can be so big depending on the opponent. if i 3-bet pre flop and bet the flop, i find that a good amount of the time they will fold, unless of course they've hit something decent.


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Yep, totally agree. We 3 bet preflop because we have a better hand and because we want to win it on flop without battle. Its not like a Q9o guy always beceoms fancy on a K53 flop after we 3bet and bet flop.

We also 3bet preflop because we dont want them to steal on us every time, 3betting is best way to make them fold K4o on button instead of stealing.

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i feel like out of both situations when they have missed the flop, i will do better with the 3-bet pre flop. i think a lot of people call the extra bet after the c/r just out of anger and disgust to see if the turn helps them. then i have to throw another bet out there on the turn. i also think that sometimes a c/r on flop can scream "hi, i totally missed this."


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Again I agree. If we 3bet and bet flop we are investing 4SB and they know we will almost always at least call their floparaise and then they have to bet turn, so if they want to bluff us they have to invest 4SB, which is a lot if u got nothing. But if we only smothcall preflop its we that will have to invest 4SB without a hand and that is pretty expensive, after already investing 2SB preflop.

There are not a lot of players, at least not at 10/20, that will 3bet preflop with weak hands. But there are a lot of players that will cr flop with nothing at all. So 3bet preflop is cheaper and signals "good hand".

Out of position this cr flop with nothing is expensive, we dont know what they are stealing with so we will never know where we are and we are.

Re: Blind defense
 

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Both plays have advantages and disadvantages so why do you think one play is better than the other? Or doesn't it matter and is it just a matter of style?



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I think you have to three bet for the value of the hand. You are still going to flop a pair or a draw half the time. It is better to make your play on a bigger pot. even if you miss the flop your three bet gives you the odds to draw out kinda how Ace King prefers to be all in pre-flop. The bigger pot also helps to reduce the value of his position. (If you flop a gutshot and overs, you can not be out played post flop if it goes 3 or 4 bets) It is much tougher playing your overs getting 5-1 on his flop bet. With a hand that is most likley boss pre-flop I dont mind being tied to a 8 or 10 sb pot.

Re: Blind defense
 

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We also 3bet preflop because we dont want them to steal on us every time, 3betting is best way to make them fold K4o on button instead of stealing.

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The button loses out marginally when stealng with a too-weak hand, the small blind loses out a bit more, and the BB takes the cake. I want the button to stealraise with K4o every time I'm in the BB.

Re: Blind defense
 

I'm working on my 3-betting from the BB, at the moment my PFR is only 10% from the BB. Assume a 30/20 40% AtSB guy openraises on the button and you are in the BB, what hands do you usually 3-bet?

Re: Blind defense
 

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We also 3bet preflop because we dont want them to steal on us every time, 3betting is best way to make them fold K4o on button instead of stealing.

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The button loses out marginally when stealng with a too-weak hand, the small blind loses out a bit more, and the BB takes the cake. I want the button to stealraise with K4o every time I'm in the BB.

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could you explain the logic behind this? I most CERTAINLY would rather have an opponent fold K4o on the button than raise with it.

You become the button when the button folds. You arent forced to call a raise out of position against an aggressive player.

Re: Blind defense
 

You really think your EV is higher with button stealing too weak hands rather than getting to play HU with position against the SB?

Re: Blind defense
 

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could you explain the logic behind this? I most CERTAINLY would rather have an opponent fold K4o on the button than raise with it.

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I'm afraid I'm armed only with my intuition and PT database for this one, and won't be able to logic it.

First of all, openraising K4o with a TAG BB is a small error (since none of us do it, do we?), so the button must be losing money. Thus, either the SB or the BB must be making money - that is, they are better off in this situation than they would have been while headsup. And clearly if the SB isn't better off, then the BB is making money off both players.

I know that I like it when it's folded around to me in the SB, and not just because headsup is fun! I had a look at my 10/20 database figures, and my BB/hand for the SB when it's folded to me (I determined this manually by filtering for opportunity to steal & raised/called/folded) is +0.15 over 2200 hands. My BB/hand for the SB facing a stealraise is -0.18, and while this doesn't take into account that the button is stealing with K4o, it is a good deal closer to the dreaded -0.25.

So it seems that the SB would prefer to be headsup with the BB than facing the K4o stealraise, and is losing money because of it. Thus, if this raise causes the button and SB to be worse off, then the BB is better off because of it. Clearly this is dependant on how apt each player is, and if the SB is a huge moron then it would be different, but I can say that as the BB I'm generally happy for the button to steal with too weak hands.

Re: Blind defense
 

Thanks for all the replies. Good discussion.

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openraising K4o with a TAG BB is a small error (since none of us do it, do we?)

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For me it's almost an auto raise.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind defense
 

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openraising K4o with a TAG BB is a small error (since none of us do it, do we?)

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For me it's almost an auto raise.


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It's probably not a good thing. Kx is a pretty shocking hand vs a TAG, since they'll rarely let you get to showdown with it. I'm one of the loosest here (vpip 30 asb 44 etc) and K7o is about the lowest I'll go unless the blinds are exceptionally weak.

Re: Blind defense
 

How can you steal about 44% of the time and not raise K4o?

When a TAG calls my PFR I'm obviously in trouble a lot of the time but the advantage of a TAG is also that he will fold very often preflop or on the flop which make up for the disadvantage when he calls.

Thanks,

Guido