Re: Heads up play
 

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I had a hand like this, I believe I had QT flop came Q5T he bet i raised, turn came a brick, he bet i raised, river came a brick he bet i raised he called MHIG.

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Anecdotes like this really prove nothing. For example: today I coldcalled preflop with 68o and hit a straight to win a 15BB pot. That doesn't mean it's the right play.

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Also, I didn't mean for this to sound dickish... which I guess it kind of did. Sorry.

Re: Heads up play
 

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By the way, the real reason I play it this way is the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. If I raise, overcards are going to call for one more, so by calling I'm waiting for the turn card to see how I play.

Charging the hearts? Why? So they don't get the odds to play on? Implied odds will more than make up for that. Suppose he does have a flush, if he hits it on the turn I've still got 13 outs to beat him, thats even if he has a flush.

And if he has a J, chances are he'll slow down on the turn if I pop him on the flop.

By waiting for a good turn card, I can reasses and trap him for more bets than a turn raise could. In other words, a flop call gives me more options, steals more bets off him, and allows me to get away from my hand cheaper.

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I understand but what I am saying is this,
1. Dont think that a J is folding here. If he has a J he is calling all the way. Rarely have I ssen a player fold TP in HU play.
2. What if he checks the turn like he did in this hand, then you lose the oppurtunity to raisee dont you?

Re: Heads up play
 

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Ba-ZING... NH. I was basically to lazy to type my thoughts out, and knew that Arturius or DD would do it for me. Thankfully arturius did...His analysis of this hand is very sound.

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Stop relying on us you lazy mug [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Heads up play
 

If he has a J, we get an extra SB by waiting for the turn. Also, if he has OCs, we give him the opportunity to bluff again, where if we raise the flop, he will fold the turn UI. This also results in an extra SB.

Re: Heads up play
 

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Ba-ZING... NH. I was basically to lazy to type my thoughts out, and knew that Arturius or DD would do it for me. Thankfully arturius did...His analysis of this hand is very sound.

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Stop relying on us you lazy mug [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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lol...I already feel like (am) a tool for racking up as many posts as I do in such a short time period.

Re: Heads up play
 

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I understand but what I am saying is this,
1. Dont think that a J is folding here. If he has a J he is calling all the way. Rarely have I ssen a player fold TP in HU play.
2. What if he checks the turn like he did in this hand, then you lose the oppurtunity to raisee dont you?

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Alrighty, lets put ourselves in the villians shoes.

You have JTo blacks, you call in the BB.

You see the flop. Obviously you hit it, its unlikely a pfr has a 7, so you bet. I now see the preflop raiser raise my bet. What do I think?

a) He could have a better jack (AJ as I did have, KJ, QJ)
b) Or a better pocket pair (AA, KK, QQ)

If I'm weak, I call down from here, unless the board gets really scary. If I'm super aggressive, I 3-bet. Now if the pfr with AJ raises, he'll probably cap (I know if I raised, I'd cap).

Now I have a turn decision to make. When capped with a J, check-call will probably be the play. That means the guy with JTo will have invested 4bb post flop into my bank account this hand.

Now lets zip over to if I called instead. Ok, turn, he only called, I'm going to pop him again. Bet. Now wait, I've been raised on a blank, [censored]. So I call, and call the river. I've invested 3.5 BB.

So the difference between the raise play is .5 BB, and thats ONLY IF HE 3-BETS ME, which he might not (because poker players are weakies in general).


Now this is a lot of writing, but Im just trying to explain. Now in other scenarios, when he has the 7, or the flush, its much better to call and wait for the turn, because obviously we can reassess our outs, make judgement to his aggression, and gain more control over the hand.

So in short, we always have Jx covered, but the flop isnt going to win us much more.

Re: Heads up play
 

I can really appreciate this reasoning and I am glad you took the time to write it out. But let me ask you this, Have you ever been involved in a HU pot where you made TP bet and where riased by the PFR? I am sure you have so what do you do. ALso, assume that your TP stay as such throughout the hand. Are you folding on the river after the turn raise?

Assuming this situation lets see some possible outcomes.


1. FLop comes villain bets JT you call, Turn he bets, you raise he calls, he checks, you bet he folds. (2.5BB)

2. Flop, villain bets you call, turn he bets you raise he calls and calls your river bet (3.5BB)

3. Flop villain bets you call, trun he check/calls, river he check/calls (2.5BB)

4. Flop villain bets you raise he calls, turn he check/calls, river he check/calls. (3BB)

I obviously would also like the number 2 outcome but he really needs to be weak for it to happen. I just think that option four which yields you 3BB is a better way to get more money from players like this HU over the long haul. As you said A turn raise says "Ha you are mine" but you run the risk of losing him on the river. Whereas a flop rasie might not make him flinch and he mioght even call you all the way down with JT.

Is my logic wrong here?

Re: Heads up play
 

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I can really appreciate this reasoning and I am glad you took the time to write it out. But let me ask you this, Have you ever been involved in a HU pot where you made TP bet and where riased by the PFR? I am sure you have so what do you do. ALso, assume that your TP stay as such throughout the hand. Are you folding on the river after the turn raise?

Assuming this situation lets see some possible outcomes.


1. FLop comes villain bets JT you call, Turn he bets, you raise he calls, he checks, you bet he folds. (2.5BB)

2. Flop, villain bets you call, turn he bets you raise he calls and calls your river bet (3.5BB)

3. Flop villain bets you call, trun he check/calls, river he check/calls (2.5BB)

4. Flop villain bets you raise he calls, turn he check/calls, river he check/calls. (3BB)

I obviously would also like the number 2 outcome but he really needs to be weak for it to happen. I just think that option four which yields you 3BB is a better way to get more money from players like this HU over the long haul. As you said A turn raise says "Ha you are mine" but you run the risk of losing him on the river. Whereas a flop rasie might not make him flinch and he mioght even call you all the way down with JT.

Is my logic wrong here?

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I don't believe that your logic is wrong here, or if it is, it's not wrong by much at all. The problem with it is, we don't KNOW that villain has TP. The other options all make more money when villain has an underpair, overcards, or a draw.

Re: Heads up play
 

Yes, assuming however he calls to the river after we turn raise him. My argument is that a turn raise gives up to much and we might lose him, whereas a flop raise really doesnt give up our hand completly.

Re: Heads up play
 

I think out of the possible BB hands (and there's a lot), another jack probably isn't a likely scenario. There's the same chance he has another 7 to be honest.

We need to know where we're at so we can focus on extracting the most money. You're looking from the jack angle I understand, but as I pointed out, the jack is such a small possibility, I don't think losing .5BB or even 1-2BB if he does should change my line for this hand.

I'm exploiting the situation to trap him for the most bets on his range of hands, and having me pay the least if he has me.