Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

My thought process is that you probably have the best hand, your hand is more likely to hold up against one player than two, and dead money in the pot is good.

The almost two thirds of the time that you flop nothing more than an overcard or two, you will be glad that you have a decent chance to take it down with a flop bet.

Of course the X% of the time that you flop a straight, two pair or trips you would rather the BB still be in the hand, but the times you will flop nothing or one pair are many more than the times you will flop something like that.

If the limper were a very tight PF, well playing postflop player than I would be less inclined to raise, for sure. But with no other information I would assume that my hand beats his range of hands and obviously my hand is better than the completely random hand that belongs to the BB.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Oof. I don't want to be results oriented here I am not advocating call because I flopped the nuts. I didn't get any money out of the BB or try to slowplay to get him to call. I just don't think I mind having him in there. If ep has any PP any ace or KQ, I'm not ahead preflop. I do understand that *maybe* my aggression preflop will get him to fold. But I don't necessarily like the fact that going into the flop I have a required bet, and probably a required turn bet too.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Another hand that just came up, curious how you guys react to it as I think some of the same concepts we are talking about here apply. Do you object to this line?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I think raising in that spot elicits suspicion so I'm very picky there. sometimes I won't even raise AJ. instead I bet any flop, or checkraise.

here I would bet the flop. he only has to fold about 30% of the time

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oof. I don't want to be results oriented here I am not advocating call because I flopped the nuts. I didn't get any money out of the BB or try to slowplay to get him to call. I just don't think I mind having him in there. If ep has any PP any ace or KQ, I'm not ahead preflop. I do understand that *maybe* my aggression preflop will get him to fold. But I don't necessarily like the fact that going into the flop I have a required bet, and probably a required turn bet too.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not 'required' for sure, but I think it is +EV to bet the flop almost every time the BB folds and the limper calls your PFR. The turn is a whole different story though, in my opinion.

My bad on accusing you of being results oriented.

The BB, if he is loose, will call with a ton of hands you have dominated and that is +EV big time. Most BB will call here with hands like K9, KT, JT, JQ, and others and when that happens it is bigtime money in your pocket. You could also have the limper dominated.

The limper has you dominated here a very small portion of the time in my opinion, you have him dominated a ton more. KQ has you in awful shape but you're not in bad shape at all against Ax, especially if he is bad postflop.

If the limper has a PP &lt;JJ and the BB has a hand he will fold to your PF raise, it is really good for you to raise this PF because you have a much easier chance of getting the PP to fold incorrectly (depending on the player of course) and you get a SB of dead money in the pot.

I think the dead money when it occurs is really nice, who knows maybe I am overrating it. I think it comes down to the combo of that (if BB is tighter) and the BB calling you with hands you are way ahead of (if he is looser) that makes this a really +EV raise.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Another hand that just came up, curious how you guys react to it as I think some of the same concepts we are talking about here apply. Do you object to this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you have the best hand here PF almost every single time. And you're going to outflop him 2/3 of the time even if you don't have him dominated. I would have raised PF and bet the flop, folding to a raise.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
The BB, if he is loose, will call with a ton of hands you have dominated and that is +EV big time. Most BB will call here with hands like K9, KT, JT, JQ, and others and when that happens it is bigtime money in your pocket. You could also have the limper dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point that the BB is going to call anyway when I will have him crushed is a very good one that I was not considering enough. The equity edge I can have in spots like this certainly does suggest raising preflop. Thanks. The 77 hand is still a seperate situation. I do agree I could just fire one bullet on the flop with the 77 however the flop is two cards above ten. I really lower the fold frequency a lot in this scenario since I can't see any of the hands that add to 20 or 21 folding the flop for one bet since they at least have a gutshot maybe a pair. Any time he calls even one flop bet it's really hard for me from the turn on out.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I wouldn't raise preflop. I think he did the right move there.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise preflop. I think he did the right move there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well why don't you add your reasoning to the discussion, we already have a nice one going.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any time he calls even one flop bet it's really hard for me from the turn on out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind check/folding the turn. He called us on what to him must be a somewhat scary board unless he has an ace or flopped a monster, so unless he has the broadway gutshot (which has ten outs against us) he is beating us soundly almost every time, and when we're behind we only have two outs.